[Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Sun Jan 1 11:19:52 PST 2012

Thanks for the post, Sunil. When I think about Obama I fear for our
"democracy." Why did he cave from the views he expressed in his candidacy?
I wonder if there are things about our military involvement that we
citizens don't know. It seems as if every US president acts the same. Our
policies never change be they Democrat or Republican.

Don't read this as a fallacious argument for Obama. I'm in your camp. Bad
is bad, and the better of two bads is still bad. What I wonder about is how
much control our President has over the military and whether we are still a
democracy as opposed to a military state. Obama's actions make no sense
given the words of his previous election campaign.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Here's are a couple of excerpts from Glenn Greenwald's column today. As I
> read it I thought of the discussion we've been having here about Ron Paul.
> I think the whole thing is worth reading, so here's the link:
>
>
> http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/progressives_and_the_ron_paul_fallacies/singleton/
>
> The links in the excerpts don't work, but those in the actual article do.
>
> First:
>
> "The thing I loathe most about election season is reflected in the central
> fallacy that drives progressive discussion the minute “Ron Paul” is
> mentioned. As soon as his candidacy is discussed, progressives will
> reflexively point to a slew of positions he holds that are anathema to
> liberalism and odious in their own right and then say: *how can you
> support someone who holds this awful, destructive position*? The premise
> here — the game that’s being played — is that if you can identify some
> heinous views that a certain candidate holds, then it means they are beyond
> the pale, that no Decent Person should even consider praising any part of
> their candidacy.
>
> The fallacy in this reasoning is glaring. The candidate supported by
> progressives — President Obama — himself holds heinous views on a slew of
> critical issues and himself has done heinous things with the power he has
> been vested. He has slaughtered civilians — Muslim children<http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2011/05/asleep-in-afghanistan.html>by the dozens — not once or twice, but continuously in numerous
> nations<http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-06-30/politics/30095838_1_al-qaeda-qaeda-somalian-islamist>with
> drones<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/17/us-drone-strikes-pakistan-waziristan>
> , cluster bombs<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/7806882/US-cluster-bombs-killed-35-women-and-children.html> and
> other forms of attack<http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/gen_mcchrystal_weve_shot_an_amazing_number_of_peop.php>.
> He has sought<http://www.salon.com/2011/11/12/u_s_takes_the_lead_on_behalf_of_cluster_bombs/>to overturn a global ban on cluster bombs. He has institutionalized the
> power of Presidents — in secret and with no checks — to target American
> citizens for assassination-by-CIA<http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/08/30/aclu-sues-obama-administration-over-alleged-assassination-plot/>,
> far from any battlefield. He has waged<http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer>an unprecedented war against whistleblowers, the protection of which was
> once a liberal shibboleth. He rendered permanently irrelevant the War
> Powers Resolution, a crown jewel in the list of post-Vietnam liberal
> accomplishments, and thus enshrined the power of Presidents to wage war
> even in the face of a Congressional vote<http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/112/house/1/493>against it. His obsession with secrecy is so extreme that it has become darkly
> laughable<https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/12/2011-review-year-secrecy-jumped-shark>in its manifestations, and he even worked to
> amend <http://www.salon.com/2009/06/01/photos_8/> the Freedom of
> Information Act (another crown jewel of liberal legislative successes) when
> compliance became inconvenient."
>
>
> Of course this is exactly what is happening in our V2020 discussion about
> Ron Paul. I think it's worth noting that the Establishment Right does not
> oppose Obama on any of these atrocities, as they would do the same. Now
> here's the next excerpt:
>
>
> "It’s perfectly rational and reasonable for progressives to decide that
> the evils of their candidate are outweighed by the evils of the GOP
> candidate, whether Ron Paul or anyone else. An honest line of reasoning in
> this regard would go as follows:
>
>
> *Yes, I’m willing to continue to have Muslim children slaughtered by
> covert drones and cluster bombs, and America’s minorities imprisoned by the
> hundreds of thousands for no good reason, and the CIA able to run rampant
> with no checks or transparency, and privacy eroded further by the unchecked
> Surveillance State, and American citizens targeted by the President for
> assassination with no due process, and whistleblowers threatened with life
> imprisonment for “espionage,” and the Fed able to dole out trillions to
> bankers in secret, and a substantially higher risk of war with Iran (fought
> by the U.S. or by Israel with U.S. support) in exchange for less severe
> cuts to Social Security, Medicare and other entitlement programs, the
> preservation of the Education and Energy Departments, more stringent
> environmental regulations, broader health care coverage, defense of
> reproductive rights for women, stronger enforcement of civil rights for
> America’s minorities, a President with no associations with racist views in
> a newsletter, and a more progressive Supreme Court.*
> *
> *
>
> Without my adopting it, *that* is at least an honest, candid, and
> rational way to defend one’s choice. It is the classic lesser-of-two-evils
> rationale, the key being that it explicitly recognizes that both sides are
> “evil”: meaning it is not a Good v. Evil contest but a More Evil v. Less
> Evil contest. But that is not the discussion that takes place because few
> progressives want to acknowledge that the candidate they are supporting —
> again — is someone who will continue to do these evil things with their
> blessing. Instead, we hear only a dishonest one-sided argument that
> emphasizes Paul’s evils while ignoring Obama’s (progressives frequently
> ask: *how can any progressive consider an anti-choice candidate* but
> don’t ask themselves: *how can any progressive support a child-killing,
> secrecy-obsessed, whistleblower-persecuting Drug Warrior?*)."
>
>
> I hear my friends say that they'll vote for Obama again, and he's the
> lesser of two evils. Well, I don't know how 'lesser' he is. I know when
> Bush was doing these things, I railed against him. Till now I've held my
> tongue about Obama, but I'm done with that.
>
>
> If you think what I've posted above is wrong, and does not describe what
> we've seen from this administration, please show me how I'm wrong. I would
> very much like to be wrong.
>
>
> Here's a link to the article.
>
>
> http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/progressives_and_the_ron_paul_fallacies/singleton/
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:26:54 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>
> I admit that there are some of Ron Paul's concepts to which I agree, such
> as those mentioned by Sunil.  However, those concepts are insufficient to
> attract my support when weighed against those concepts with which I
> disagree.
>
> He is simply not the individual I want answering the 3:00 AM call in the
> White House.
>
> Seeya later, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Spokane, Washington
>
> "If not us, who?
> If not now, when?"
>
> - Unknown
>
> On Dec 31, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Let's for one moment assume that Paul is a racist. I'm not saying he is,
> just assume he is so that issue doesn't need to be discussed for a minute.
>
> Is he wrong on ending our wars? Is he wrong on cutting the defense budget?
> Is he wrong about the Patriot Act? Is he wrong about the Executive Branch
> seizing powers it should not have?
>
> What say you, Keely, Wayne, Saundra, Tom?
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:20:01 -0800
> From: <godshatter at yahoo.com>godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: <deco at moscow.com>deco at moscow.com
> CC: <Vision2020 at moscow.com>Vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
>
>
> He has admitted to putting out an investment newsletter that (as far as I
> can tell) was not one of the newsletters that printed the racist comments.
> It had all sorts of conspiracy theories about what will happen to people
> trying to deal in large amounts of cash, most of which have come true -
> just not in the way he thought.  Try taking a large pile of cash through
> airport security and see how well that goes.
>
> Another distraction attempt, supposedly a smoking gun, apparently succeeds
> in its goals.  Or maybe this is just jumping on the bandwagon, since it is
> the Daily Mail, after all.
>
> Paul
>
> On 12/31/2011 04:44 PM, Art Deco wrote:
>
> See:
>
> <http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078217/Ron-Paul-racist-homophobic-newsletters-Video-taking-credit.html>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078217/Ron-Paul-racist-homophobic-newsletters-Video-taking-credit.html
>
> Scroll down to see the videos of Paul Himself acknowledging the letters,
> etc.
>
> All javascript scripts must be allowed in order to see the whole article
> including the videos.
>
> w.
>
>  *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:52 PM
> *To:* keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> *Cc:* <vision2020 at moscow.com>vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
>
>
> Does it matter whether or not the allegations are true?  Or do we just
> call them out anyway?
>
> Here is an article from CBS News about the newsletters:
> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57345702-503544/ron-paul-disavows-racist-newsletters-under-his-name/>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57345702-503544/ron-paul-disavows-racist-newsletters-under-his-name/
>
> The article contains a quote by Ron Paul on the issue:
>
> "When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a
> newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit. Several writers
> contributed to the product," he said. "For over a decade, I have publicly
> taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out
> under my name."
>
> I'd hate to see the man dragged over the coals for something he might not
> have deserved solely because (for example) Jon Huntsman is losing to Ron
> Paul in New Hampshire and has staked his campaign on a strong showing there.
>
> I got that last bit from this article:
> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57349712-503544/huntsman-calls-ron-paul-unelectable-because-of-racist-newsletters/>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57349712-503544/huntsman-calls-ron-paul-unelectable-because-of-racist-newsletters/
>
> And once again, this is only out there in order to distract us.  These
> people could care less if it's even true.  It's just convenient.
>
> Paul
>
> On 12/31/2011 02:44 PM, keely emerinemix wrote:
>
> I don't think you're defending racism, racist behavior, or even the
> wrongness of screaming "He's a racist!" at the slightest apparent
> provocation.  That said, I think it's imperative that legitimate
> indications that an individual's views on race/gender/class/civil
> rights/culture are bigoted be called out, examined, and condemned -- and I
> believe that the text of Ron Paul's newsletters are an example.
>
> Keely
>  <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:41:13 -0800
> From: <jborden at datawedge.com>jborden at datawedge.com
> To: <kjajmix1 at msn.com>kjajmix1 at msn.com; <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; <vision2020 at moscow.com>vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>  I’m not **defending** racism, I’m commenting on the mere finger-pointing
> and accusations being so charged that it’s a nuclear weapon in a political
> arsenal.
>
>
>
> It’s used as a tool for distraction, and hence, theatrics.  (And, unless I
> missed the mark, perhaps Mr. Rumelhart’s point).
>
>
>
> Insert story of “crying wolf”.
>
>
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> *From:* keely emerinemix [ <kjajmix1 at msn.com>mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com<kjajmix1 at msn.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
> *To:* Jay Borden; <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
>
>
>
> Jay, I would rue the day that racist behavior and bigoted views become
> irrelevant in how we choose our leaders.  There are issues that truly good
> people can disagree on; racism, however, is never the view of a "truly good
> person," and in fact ought to, by virtue of popular outcry, immediately
> make a pariah out of the one who embraces it.
>
> Keely
>  <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:17:33 -0800
> From: <jborden at datawedge.com>jborden at datawedge.com
> To: <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
>
> I would agree with Paul’s statement… but I would word it a bit differently
> to deflect some of the immediate hatred I’m sure will be heading my way.
>
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