[Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Fri Feb 17 13:04:40 PST 2012

Seeya later, Moscow.

Tom Hansen
Post Falls, Idaho

"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"

- Unknown

On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:56, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jay,
>  
> I'm not in denial about the Democrats being for the redistribution of wealth. So are the Republicans. It is just a matter of which way you want the wealth redistributed, from rich to poor or poor to the rich. And yes, many Democrats support some socialist ideas, and many Republicans support oligarchies. And we know that because they say and act so. If nine out of ten Tea Party members support bigoted candidates, then nine out of ten Tea Party members are supporting bigotry, regardless of their otherwise stated intentions.
>  
> Donovan Arnold
> 
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 1:32 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
> 
> (Shrug).
>  
> Ok… I provided the proof that the Democratic party’s list of candidates have publically stated they are for the redistribution of wealth (the mantra of socialism)… and I even provided a link to the horse’s mouth.  It doesn’t get any clearer than that.
>  
> You can continue to live in denial that Democrats are all about nothing but the warm and fuzzy things you want them to favor… but this is in your own mind and separate from the reality that they are against anything but a socialist agenda.
>  
>  
>  
> Jay
>  
> From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:20 PM
> To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Jay,
>  
> We already provided the proof, the Tea Party's list of candidates that have publicly stated that they are against equal rights for Gays and Lesbians. That is proof straight from the horses mouth. It doesn't get any clearer than that.
>  
> And you can continue to live in denial that the Tea Party is all about nothing but the warm and fuzzy things you want them to favor. But this is in your own mind only and separate from the reality they are against Gays and Lesbians obtaining the same rights as you enjoy.
>  
> I have said nothing about them picketing against gay parades. They are welcome to exercise that freedom all they want.  It is the supporting of legislation that limits the constitutional rights and liberties of any law abiding citizens that I am concerned about and is the real threat.
>  
> How others will be treated is always something you should consider when voting or supporting a candidate. And for the record, there is no such thing as gay rights. There is only such thing as human rights, and they should apply to all humans, everywhere, and every time.
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:51 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> 1)       The burden of proof isn’t on me… it’s on you.  You show me examples where the Tea Party is out rallying against gay-pride parades,  and I’ll change MY beliefs.  In the mean time, I’ll continue reading news stories about how the Tea Party is out rallying against higher taxes and against a more intrusive government… and continuing to notice that it has nothing to do with gay rights.
> 2)      You can’t disprove a negative.  “Prove to me your NOT a bigot”… “prove to me you don’t beat your wife”.   NOT doing something is not the same as being against it. 
>  
> Again… just because the Tea Party doesn’t consider this topic relevant to their rallying cry doesn’t mean that they’re anti-gay… it’s just not a factor.  But that’s not the same as saying the group is anti-gay.
>  
> Person 1:  Do you think about the children when purchasing your tires at Les Schwab?
>  
> Person 2:  No… I really don’t consider it.
>  
> Person 1:  OMG!  YOU MUST HATE CHILDREN!!!
>  
> Person 2:  No, it’s just not something I’m considering when I’m buying tires. 
>  
>  
>  
> Or…maybe here’s a good way to turn it around using this logic.
>  
> -----------------------------------------------
>  
> “I believe that all Democrats are socialist.”  (This is, of course, nonsense… but stay with me).
>  
> The current administration has made repeated remarks on the redistribution of wealth, and has made it clear that this is how society will succeed in their vision moving forward.  (From those than can provide, to those that need… )
>  
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W2VJjA6wFk)
>  
> Since Obama is the ONLY candidate on the democratic side of the coin, any summary of Obama’s positions is, in fact, an endorsement of all of his policies… whether they are mentioned or not. 
>  
> This would include his ideas to redistribute wealth.  One of the key ideas behind a socialist agenda.
>  
> This, in turn, would mean that anyone who votes or considers a vote for Obama must be an active/aggressive proponent of socialism.
>  
> So… even though a vote for Obama might be cast for a completely different set of criteria, the voter is, in fact, a socialist.
>  
>  
> Now… it’s all nonsense of course… but using this same logic, you can go down the path of proving anything to anyone….
>  
> “I believe all people who buy tires from Les Schwab are for child violence”.
>  
> “I believe all people who drive a Prius are ax-murderers”
>  
> “I believe all people who plants trees are diabetic”.
>  
>  
> In the end… without proof of the claims “Tea Party is anti-gay” and “if Tea Party would get out of the way we’d have equality for gays”… we’re just two guys saying “nuh-uh” to each other.
>  
>  
>  
> Jay
>  
> From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 11:12 AM
> To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Jay,
>  
> Most bigots don't think they are bigots. I have talked to members of the Aryan Nations when I lived right down the road from their compound in Hayden, that didn't think they were prejudiced, they just wanted a separate nation for each race. I have talked to men and women that don't think they are sexists but believe men and woman are meant for separate roles in society. And I consider their bigotry the same as someone that doesn't believe that Gays and Lesbians should be allowed the same rights and protections as all other citizens.
>  
> If you, Jay, can find me three candidates that the Tea Party supports that are for the same rights and protections for Gays and Lesbians as everyone else, then I will retract my statement that the Tea Party is not entirely composed of candidates that are anti-Gay.
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 11:20 AM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Ok, *now* I would require some proof from you before I would believe the “Tea Party acts aggressively against gays, lesbians, transgendered, the poor, and other minorities” comment. 
>  
> I don’t mean proof like “here’s a photo of some random clown showing up with a slanderous sign that attached himself to a Tea Party Rally”….
>  
> I mean proof like… the Tea Party demonstrating against a gay pride parade… or a Tea Party rally showing up at a military funeral to shout anti-gay slurs… or some sort of Tea Party memorandum that says “here’s how we’re going to hate on gay people this week…”
>  
> Every group attracts the unwanted fringe.  Tea Party, OWS, WTO protests, whatever.   But minus some sort of damning proof, we’re down to our beliefs… and I don’t believe that the Tea Party has a core agenda that is anti-gay, any more than the OWS has a core agenda to prop up Roe vs. Wade.
>  
>  
> Jay
>  
> From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:37 PM
> To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Jay,
>  
> To me, an organization is what it does, not what it lists as on a bulletin board. The Tea Party acts aggressively against gays, lesbians, transgendered, the poor and other minorities. Of course it isn't going to say that in its platform because it would be open to public attack and so would those that supported it. Actions speak louder than words. If someone tells me they don't hate me, but keeps punching me in the face, I don't believe it, regardless of their words. And even if I did believe you, it doesn't matter, because the effect is the same, a bloody nose to minorities in America because of the Tea Party.
>  
>  
> The Tea Party is the right wing response to the economic crisis, as Occupy Wall Street is the left wing response to the economic crisis. But neither, I think, has the proper approach.
>  
> The only way to positively change America for its people, is to change the policies and laws so that everyone has a shot at getting wealthy. We have an incredibly shrieking middle class. We have a nation of laws and politicians that prevent the rich from becoming poor and the poor from becoming rich, with an ever increasing divide between the two. Our direction is economically unsustainable, undemocratic, anti-capitalistic and anti-American.
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:53 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Ok… fantastic!  You’ve nearly come around!
>  
> Giving a run-down of the candidates and their stance on core issues doesn’t mean you share the same agendas.  If the Tea Party had an anti-gay agenda then it would have been a category on the rap-sheet.  (Taxes, Entitlements, Immigration, Stance on Gay Rights).  You interpret the missing element as some sort of undertone.   I see it as “not relevant to the Tea Party”… (I also don’t see “affirmative action” listed, but I don’t take that to mean they have an agenda for/against it).
>  
> My original point (from Tom Hansen’s post) was that the Tea Party has nothing to do blocking equal rights for gays… and “getting them out of the way” would have nothing to do with progress on that front. 
>  
> I realize that most people on this forum hate the Tea Party, conservative viewpoints, or anything close to the color red.  But at least hate an organization for what they *actually* stand for.
>  
>  
> Jay
>  
> From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:58 AM
> To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> "You’re basically saying you cannot be both Republican AND fiscally conservative or a proponent of the constitution. You’re basically saying that if you’re a member of the Tea Party, then you have an anti-gay agenda.", contends Mr. Borden.
>  
>  
> I am not saying that Republicans cannot be fiscally conservative or proponents of the constitution. I am saying that they are not. I am not saying that all members of the Tea Party have an anti-gay agenda. I am saying the people they endorse and support do. And those are the facts as illogical as they may seem to you.
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:56 AM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> You really really really really really need to brush up on your understanding of mutual exclusivity.  You’re basically saying you cannot be both Republican AND fiscally conservative or a proponent of the constitution.  You’re basically saying that if you’re a member of the Tea Party, then you have an anti-gay agenda. 
>  
> This is not true. 
>  
> Start throwing around terms like “all Christians are Republican” or “all Republicans are Christian” and maybe you can see where this falls apart.
>  
> If you want to take this to your next (illogical) step, why not just say that “anyone who votes Republican has an anti-gay agenda?”   
>  
>  
>  
> Jay
>  
> From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:15 AM
> To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Jay,
>  
> You can claim all you want that it is faulty logic, but it is factually true that ALL of the candidates they listed and endorse are publicly against gays having equality. To me, and most others that can read between the lines, that makes them anti-gay.  And there is no such thing as a part of the Republican Party that is "the fiscal /constitutional right." Those people for sound fiscal policy and the constitutional rights of people are called Libertarians, Democrats and Independents.
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:23 AM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> This is faulty logic.  They are just giving a punch list of the candidates jockeying for the Republican nomination. 
>  
> Using this same logic, you could suggest that EVERYONE who votes Republican has an anti-gay agenda… and using the same logic one can say that EVERYONE who votes Democrat must have a socialist agenda.  (Neither of which are true).
>  
> (In fact, some folks here on V2020 have said that if Huntsman were voted into office, they least wouldn’t lose sleep over it… since Huntsman was listed in this newsletter, does that mean that these same V2020 folks must also have an anti-gay agenda?)
>  
> While the candidates themselves might have a slanted view of gay rights, I don’t see any indication that the Tea Party is only listing folks that have passed some sort of “Anti-Gay Agenda Seal of Approval”…  the Tea Party may be extreme, but in a different direction than Tom  Hansen is suggesting.     If you want to find an element of bigotry and hatred towards gays on the Republican side of the political coin, you’ll find it in the religious right… not the fiscal /constitutional right.
>  
>  
>  
> Jay
>  
>  
>  
> From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:31 AM
> To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
>  
> Jay,
>  
> Every person they endorsed is against equality for gays and you don't think they are against equality for gays? If an organization only endorsed Grand Dragons of the KKK would you claim also to be so blind that you don't see how they are anti-civil rights?
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
> From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
> 
> Ok... you've provided a link to a Tea Party newsletter... which begins
> with a pre-amble of core Tea Party beliefs (which center around "stop
> spending, stop tramping the Constitution")....
> 
> ... and continues on to list off the current Republican candidates with
> a short cheat-sheet on their stances on major issues:  Healthcare and
> Entitlements, Education, Spending and Taxes, Immigration, Energy, and
> National Security.
> 
> There's one line item in there for "Rick Perry" for a category called
> "social", which lists he supports traditional marriage, and signed the
> Defense of Marriage Act... 
> 
> 
> That's not even close to a smoking gun.  If there's an "anti-gay" agenda
> in there, I must have missed it.
> 
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 1:32 PM
> To: Jay Borden
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
> 
> Are you sure about that, Mr. Borden?
> 
> http://www.teapartyboise.com/newsletter_12-21-2011.pdf
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> Seeya later, Moscow.
> 
> Tom Hansen
> Post Falls, Idaho
> 
> "If not us, who?
> If not now, when?"
> 
> - Unknown
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 14, 2012, at 13:24, "Jay Borden" <jborden at datawedge.com> wrote:
> 
> > Wait... you're suggesting that the Tea Party is responsible for Idaho
> > not passing equal rights legislation?
> > 
> > I think you're confusing the "Taxed Enough Already" splinter of the
> > Republican party with the "Religious Right" membership of the
> Republican
> > party.
> > 
> > 
> > Jay
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> > [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hansen
> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:53 PM
> > To: Moscow Vision 2020
> > Subject: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
> > 
> > . . . the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender citizens of the
> state
> > of Washington for a fight well fought . . . and won . . .
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Y9nYCcYbw
> > 
> > Now, if only Idaho can wean itself from the Tea Party (undeniable
> proof
> > that pygmy three-toed sloths and chimpanzees do mate), perhaps we can
> > join the rest of this great nation in recognizing the 14th amendment
> to
> > the U.S. Constitution and applying it to all of our citizens.
> > 
> > Seeya later, Moscow.
> > 
> > Tom Hansen
> > Post Falls, Idaho
> > 
> > "If not us, who?
> > If not now, when?"
> > 
> > - Unknown
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >              http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
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