[Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Fri Feb 17 11:12:05 PST 2012

Jay,

Most bigots don't think they are bigots. I have talked to members of the Aryan Nations when I lived right down the road from their compound in Hayden, that didn't think they were prejudiced, they just wanted a separate nation for each race. I have talked to men and women that don't think they are sexists but believe men and woman are meant for separate roles in society. And I consider their bigotry the same as someone that doesn't believe that Gays and Lesbians should be allowed the same rights and protections as all other citizens.

If you, Jay, can find me three candidates that the Tea Party supports that are for the same rights and protections for Gays and Lesbians as everyone else, then I will retract my statement that the Tea Party is not entirely composed of candidates that are anti-Gay. 

Donovan Arnold

From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Ok, *now* I would require some proof from you before I would believe the “Tea Party acts aggressively against gays, lesbians, transgendered, the poor, and other minorities” comment.  

I don’t mean proof like “here’s a photo of some random clown showing up with a slanderous sign that attached himself to a Tea Party Rally”….

I mean proof like… the Tea Party demonstrating against a gay pride parade… or a Tea Party rally showing up at a military funeral to shout anti-gay slurs… or some sort of Tea Party memorandum that says “here’s how we’re going to hate on gay people this week…”

Every group attracts the unwanted fringe.  Tea Party, OWS, WTO protests, whatever.   But minus some sort of damning proof, we’re down to our beliefs… and I don’t believe that the Tea Party has a core agenda that is anti-gay, any more than the OWS has a core agenda to prop up Roe vs. Wade.

Jay

From:Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:37 PM
To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Jay,

To me, an organization is what it does, not what it lists as on a bulletin board. The Tea Party acts aggressively against gays, lesbians, transgendered, the poor and other minorities. Of course it isn't going to say that in its platform because it would be open to public attack and so would those that supported it. Actions speak louder than words. If someone tells me they don't hate me, but keeps punching me in the face, I don't believe it, regardless of their words. And even if I did believe you, it doesn't matter, because the effect is the same, a bloody nose to minorities in America because of the Tea Party. 

The Tea Party is the right wing response to the economic crisis, as Occupy Wall Street is the left wing response to the economic crisis. But neither, I think, has the proper approach.

The only way to positively change America for its people, is to change the policies and laws so that everyone has a shot at getting wealthy. We have an incredibly shrieking middle class. We have a nation of laws and politicians that prevent the rich from becoming poor and the poor from becoming rich, with an ever increasing divide between the two. Our direction is economically unsustainable, undemocratic, anti-capitalistic and anti-American. 

Donovan Arnold

From:Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Ok… fantastic!  You’ve nearly come around!

Giving a run-down of the candidates and their stance on core issues doesn’t mean you share the same agendas.  If the Tea Party had an anti-gay agenda then it would have been a category on the rap-sheet.  (Taxes, Entitlements, Immigration, Stance on Gay Rights).  You interpret the missing element as some sort of undertone.   I see it as “not relevant to the Tea Party”… (I also don’t see “affirmative action” listed, but I don’t take that to mean they have an agenda for/against it).

My original point (from Tom Hansen’s post) was that the Tea Party has nothing to do blocking equal rights for gays… and “getting them out of the way” would have nothing to do with progress on that front.  

I realize that most people on this forum hate the Tea Party, conservative viewpoints, or anything close to the color red.  But at least hate an organization for what they *actually* stand for. 

Jay

From:Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:58 AM
To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

"You’re basically saying you cannot be both Republican AND fiscally conservative or a proponent of the constitution. You’re basically saying that if you’re a member of the Tea Party, then you have an anti-gay agenda.",contends Mr. Borden.

I am not saying that Republicans cannot be fiscally conservative or proponents of the constitution. I am saying that they are not. I am not saying that all members of the Tea Party have an anti-gay agenda. I am saying the people they endorse and support do. And those are the facts as illogical as they may seem to you.

Donovan Arnold

From:Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

You really really really really really need to brush up on your understanding of mutual exclusivity.  You’re basically saying you cannot be both Republican AND fiscally conservative or a proponent of the constitution.  You’re basically saying that if you’re a member of the Tea Party, then you have an anti-gay agenda.  

This is not true.  

Start throwing around terms like “all Christians are Republican” or “all Republicans are Christian” and maybe you can see where this falls apart.

If you want to take this to your next (illogical) step, why not just say that “anyone who votes Republican has an anti-gay agenda?”   

Jay

From:Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:15 AM
To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Jay,

You can claim all you want that it is faulty logic, but it is factually true that ALL of the candidates they listed and endorse are publicly against gays having equality. To me, and most others that can read between the lines, that makes them anti-gay.  And there is no such thing as a part of the Republican Party that is"the fiscal /constitutional right."Those people for sound fiscal policy and the constitutional rights of people are called Libertarians, Democrats and Independents. 

Donovan Arnold

From:Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

This is faulty logic.  They are just giving a punch list of the candidates jockeying for the Republican nomination.  

Using this same logic, you could suggest that EVERYONE who votes Republican has an anti-gay agenda… and using the same logic one can say that EVERYONE who votes Democrat must have a socialist agenda.  (Neither of which are true).

(In fact, some folks here on V2020 have said that if Huntsman were voted into office, they least wouldn’t lose sleep over it… since Huntsman was listed in this newsletter, does that mean that these same V2020 folks must also have an anti-gay agenda?)

While the candidates themselves might have a slanted view of gay rights, I don’t see any indication that the Tea Party is only listing folks that have passed some sort of “Anti-Gay Agenda Seal of Approval”…  the Tea Party may be extreme, but in a different direction than Tom  Hansen is suggesting.     If you want to find an element of bigotry and hatred towards gays on the Republican side of the political coin, you’ll find it in the religious right… not the fiscal /constitutional right.

Jay

From:Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:31 AM
To: Jay Borden; Tom Hansen
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Jay,

Every person they endorsed is against equality for gays and you don't think they are against equality for gays? If an organization only endorsed Grand Dragons of the KKK would you claim also to be so blind that you don't see how they are anti-civil rights? 

Donovan Arnold

From:Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Ok... you've provided a link to a Tea Party newsletter... which begins
with a pre-amble of core Tea Party beliefs (which center around "stop
spending, stop tramping the Constitution")....

... and continues on to list off the current Republican candidates with
a short cheat-sheet on their stances on major issues:  Healthcare and
Entitlements, Education, Spending and Taxes, Immigration, Energy, and
National Security.

There's one line item in there for "Rick Perry" for a category called
"social", which lists he supports traditional marriage, and signed the
Defense of Marriage Act... 

That's not even close to a smoking gun.  If there's an "anti-gay" agenda
in there, I must have missed it.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 1:32 PM
To: Jay Borden
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .

Are you sure about that, Mr. Borden?

http://www.teapartyboise.com/newsletter_12-21-2011.pdf

Hmmm.

Seeya later, Moscow.

Tom Hansen
Post Falls, Idaho

"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"

- Unknown

On Feb 14, 2012, at 13:24, "Jay Borden" <jborden at datawedge.com> wrote:

> Wait... you're suggesting that the Tea Party is responsible for Idaho
> not passing equal rights legislation?
> 
> I think you're confusing the "Taxed Enough Already" splinter of the
> Republican party with the "Religious Right" membership of the
Republican
> party.
> 
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hansen
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:53 PM
> To: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: [Vision2020] A Dedication to . . .
> 
> . . . the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender citizens of the
state
> of Washington for a fight well fought . . . and won . . .
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Y9nYCcYbw
> 
> Now, if only Idaho can wean itself from the Tea Party (undeniable
proof
> that pygmy three-toed sloths and chimpanzees do mate), perhaps we can
> join the rest of this great nation in recognizing the 14th amendment
to
> the U.S. Constitution and applying it to all of our citizens.
> 
> Seeya later, Moscow.
> 
> Tom Hansen
> Post Falls, Idaho
> 
> "If not us, who?
> If not now, when?"
> 
> - Unknown
> 
> 
> 
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