[Vision2020] Huh?
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Sun Dec 23 02:02:46 PST 2012
I don't know who you're talking to. I'm not in favor of limiting all guns and I certainly don't think the only thing we should do is put gun limits in place.
Actually I have no plan. All I know for sure is 1) curtailing automatic weapons and ammo should be explored, 2) sales to the insane should be prevented, 3) mental health care should be addressed and improved, and 4) the NRA plan is a joke, just a way to change the subject and avoid even talking about things like (1) and (2).
On Dec 22, 2012, at 4:29 PM, Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com> wrote:
> Joe, et al,
>
>
> It does sound reasonable, and I for one don't think ANY plan should be dismissed out of hand, and that ALL the options should be looked at.
>
> Now, I'll play the devil's advocate, and ask: "Since we are going look at strictly limiting guns, ammunition etc etc, are we no longer going to need to arm police or have a small armed team of police as opposed to all police being armed? That would create two levels of police and two levels of pay. The UK eliminated most firearms throughout the country, and the police over there do have armed response teams to handle fire arms related incidents as opposed to ALL police being armed. Think it would work here?" And no one ever mentions the Empire State building shooting, were the "killer" shot and killed one person that he had targeted, but that the wounded, all 9 of them, were caused by the NY City Police Department.
>
> And since the majority of people would no longer have firearms, do we really need to be spending all that much money on armed protection for politicians and officials such as the President, Vice President, General and Admirals? Since there is this "blue ribbon" committee being put together by by the President and headed by the Vice President, are they going to have enough confidence in that plan to dismiss their armed security? Or will it be one set of rules for the "haves" and another for the "have nots"?
>
> And what about the mental health issues, or is there a supposition that all of the shooters at the elementary school, shopping mall, cinema, Sikh temple and political rally were NOT people with mental health issues, so since mental health doesn't plan a role in "problem" it doesn't have to be part of the solution?
>
>
> Just some thoughts
>
> Wayne
>
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>
>
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>
> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:29 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
>> This sounds reasonable, Scott. What I worry about is whether THIS discussion is going to happen, and I worry that this is only getting attention because the NRA has a lot of support. There is nothing about the content of the plan, just the fact the it is the NRA plan. And I worry that even if it is shown that the plan is a bad one, even though expert after expert (I've noted the opinion of a former leader of the FBI), conservative politician after conservative politician (I've mentioned the quote of the former leader of the Republican Party; I'm watching Christy slam it on CNN at this moment) speaks out against the plan, people will still want to debate about it because it is the NRA plan. Joe
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> You may ultimately be right that 'it is a bad plan', but obviously not everyone has come to that same conclusion. IMO it would be a good use of time to FULLY vet that proposal along with its advantages (if any) and disadvantages. And if you know things that others don't and it's all crystal clear to you, then by all means shoot holes in the idea and preferably with cold hard verifiable facts and statistics.
>>>
>>> <it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal>
>>> Have the FBI profilers weigh in on this
>>> Have mental health professionals weigh in on this
>>>
>>> <The plan is economically unfeasible.>
>>> Show the economic numbers in comparison to the price of unleashed mayhem
>>> Put forth all ideas of funding prevention programs and similarly fully vet each of those ideas
>>>
>>> Ultimately the plan either stands up to detailed scrutiny or can be demonstrably shown as unfeasible. unwise, etc. The NRA says this is the answer and they have legions of supporters that take that as the gospel truth since this 'group think' seems to be a human attribute as can be seen almost everywhere in politics, religion, v2020, and so on.
>>>
>>> Reasonable people can clearly see the truth when it's presented clearly, crisply, and - above all - accurately. As for unreasonable people, there's no hope for them.
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:11:19 -0800
>>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>> To: jampot at roadrunner.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
>>>
>>> Gary,
>>>
>>> I'm happy to discuss this issue with you but that would mean we would have to discuss it. People keep mentioning specific criticisms about the NRA plan, referring you and others to articles and television interviews where the plan is discussed and dismissed, yet I don't see any real discussion of the plan from its supporters. I have not seen many responses to the criticisms other than "It might work." Like that was a reason for seriously the plan.
>>>
>>> Let me be more specific. Here are two recent criticisms that have not yet been responded to. They are recent, so maybe that is the reason: one by Dan and one by Sunil. Sunil writes:
>>>
>>> With regard to the NRA response: As my memory serves me, I think we've had shootouts at the following locations in the last 12-18 months:
>>> -an elementary school;
>>> -a shopping mall;
>>> -a cinema;
>>> -a Sikh temple;
>>> -a political rally (that was >18 months ago, I think).
>>> Should we have armed guards to protect us from each other at all of those locations?
>>>
>>> This broadens the economic argument that I was giving. The plan is economically unfeasible. It isn't JUST that it is irresponsible -- a huge federal program in a time of economic crisis -- it is unfeasible.
>>>
>>> Second, Dan notes that there are questions about the need for the plan. He writes: "there was significant security present when Gabrielle Giffords was shot." Why think the security will help? You are ready to launch a huge governmental program and it isn't even clear that it will do any good. Saundra noted that it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal.
>>>
>>> So how do you or any others respond to these criticisms of the NRA plan? Let's discuss it. I want to get this over with because this is a bad plan and we are wasting a lot of time talking about it. Let's see why it is a bad plan and move on to a better plan.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>> I thought the point here was to discuss options. Do you imagine that being extra unpleasant lends an extra level of credence to your point of view?
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>> From: Saundra Lund
>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:18 PM
>>> To: 'Gary Crabtree' ; 'viz'
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
>>>
>>> It worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Confrontation by the armed officer on campus & the exchange of fire drove one of the shooters back into the school to continue the slaughter. There’s a stellar success!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oops – but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Saundra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Gary Crabtree
>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM
>>> To: Joe Campbell
>>> Cc: viz
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Training to become a cop in Idaho is 10 weeks making time not much of an issue. There are quite a few things covered in POST that a school guard would not need training in (pursuit driving, crime scene investigation, etc. ) further reducing the time needed to get qualified people in place. Utilizing vets who were MP's or members of security detachments along with retired police officers would be prime candidates for positions such as this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All entry doors in a facility could be easily modified to emergency exit only except for one. This would make it so all visitors would be funneled through one door and past one armed guard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I really don't see what make this idea so unworkable other then the fact that it doesn't jibe very well with the anti-gun agenda.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Scott,
>>>
>>> There was an Assistant Director of the FBI on CNN today explaining why this cannot be implemented. Think of the training required before you release folks with guns onto school campuses. Then think of the number of schools, the number of doors to the school that would need to be guarded, the costs of training and hiring an education militia, and the number of qualified people available for those positions. This is a bad idea that does not stand a chance of getting passed. Forget about it and move on to some actual solution.
>>>
>>> Best, Joe
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Armed security is something that could be implemented, regulated, and enforced much more easily than gun control, gun bans, etc. Armed security guards could be subjected to more rigorous background and mental heath checks plus mandatory training and licensing without having that pesky 2nd Amendment coming into the mix. Somewhat similar to how we supposedly have air marshalls on some flights. This might be one of the very few things that the Republicans would actually be OK to put on the fragile shoulders of tax paying individuals and businesses.
>>>
>>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:36:59 -0800
>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: [Vision2020] Huh?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy debate over legislation, regulation or anything else, as soon as our kids return to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single school in America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work — and by that I mean armed security."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the National Rifle Association (December 21, 2012)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>>
>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Hansen
>>>
>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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