[Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

Thu Dec 20 15:22:00 PST 2012

I think you are correct that "paranoid" is an over exaggeration -- like
when you want to talk about gun control and folks insist you want to take
away their handguns and rifles. Maybe it is even a little insulting -- like
calling someone "hysterical" because you disagree with their political
views, or methodologies, or conversations. I apologize for that.

I still stand by the analogy. There is an issue here of risk assessment and
how it impacts policy. We FEEL safer in cars than planes but we are a lot
safer in planes. Our policies should track the facts, not our feelings. I
understand that people feel safer, more in control with a handgun. But what
do the facts say? That is what is important.

But that is a tangential point. I wasn't using it as the basis of an
argument to restrict handgun usage. I was making it in the context of a
broader set of claims.

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Since I managed to write my post without thinking of you once, Tom, I'm
> going to have to say you're being a little paranoid. Oh, and you've said
> you don't believe in handguns, never had. So should we add them to assault
> rifles?
>
> Unless what you just posted was intended as a joke, in which case let me
> say "Bravo."
>
> OK?
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:57:31 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>
>
> For the umpteenth time . . .
>
> I am NOT anti-gun.  I AM anti-assault rifle.
>
> Ok?
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares"
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <
> sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I don't think Paul or anyone else is paranoid for wanting to own a gun
> for defense. I can think of an event just a few years ago in Moscow, close
> to my home, when I'll bet folks in the neighorhood who owned guns were glad
> to have them. Those are exceptional events, I think, but it happened here.
> And I believe there has been at least one home invasion in Pullman in
> recent years.
>
> At the same time I had a job that gave me a pretty good look at the crime
> in Moscow, and I do think it's a pretty safe place.
>
> If one is going to have firearms in the home, then of course they should
> take steps to make sure they're stored where kids (or thieves) can't get to
> them.
>
> Having said all that, I think Paul that you are also overreacting. It is
> time we discuss what to do about the price our society is paying with our
> current approach to gun ownership. We shouldn't wait. If we talk rationally
> we can separate bad policies from good policies.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:24:42 -0800
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>
> Thanks for the free psychoanalysis.  Is it your opinion that nobody in
> Moscow should need to defend themselves in their own home at any time?  Do
> you recommend keeping your doors and windows unlocked at night?
>
> Crime is real.  Even in innocent little Moscow.  I don't find it paranoid
> to want to be able to defend myself if the need should arise.  Feel free to
> think of my calm, rational decision to be prepared for an unlikely but
> plausible scenario as a  mental health problem, though, if it makes you
> feel superior.
>
> I see this current round of trying to ban the low hanging fruit to be an
> overreaction.  It's an excuse that people who don't think the Second
> Amendment is worth anything can use to do what they have always wanted to
> do anyway.  While I also realize that no one is trying to ban weapons used
> for personal defense inside their homes, provided they are not assault
> weapons or have too many rounds in the clip, I have no doubt that there are
> people out there that would if they thought they had a chance in hell of
> getting away with it.
>
> Banning assault weapons will have as little effect on the overall
> situation as taking off our shoes in airports has had fighting terrorism.
>
> Paul
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <
> vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:30 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>
> You sound paranoid, Paul. There is little evidence that a gun is needed
> for protection in this town. Could happen. Could happen that a brick falls
> out of a window and strikes you on the head, too. But if you walked around
> town with a helmet, you would LOOK paranoid. You would look paranoid
> precisely because you are preparing for something that has a VERY low
> probability of occurring.
>
> What exactly am I missing in this analogy? And like Carl said, neither I
> nor anyone else is going to take away your handgun. But I'll try my best
> not to let paranoia dictate public policy.
>
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> That's your recommended defense against someone who, for whatever reason,
> has broken into my house with me inside of it?  Expect the best of them?
> Should I trust in fate and never wear seat belts?
>
> Oh, and pardon me for relating a story relevant to the topic at hand.
>
> Paul
>
>
>    ------------------------------
> *From:* Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:32 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>
> As long as we're substituting anecdotes for data, I can say that I do get
> on airplanes frequently. In 71 years of life, my home has never been
> burglarized or invaded. I have never been mugged or even threatened on the
> street. I have traveled to fifty states, seven continents and thirty
> countries and found only friendly and cooperative people. I observe
> common-sense precautions to avoid situations where I could be put in
> danger, like patronizing sleazy bars while flashing a big roll of bills (I
> know, no fun).
>
> The only time I found it necessary to be armed was during a year in
> Vietnam and even there, the great majority of the people I met were
> non-belligerent. I sold my personal guns when I returned, and don't miss
> them. Life is a happier place if you expect the best of people and don't
> look for dangers lurking around every corner.
>
>  ------------------------------
> * From: * Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>;
> * To: * Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>;
> * Cc: * vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> * Subject: * Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
> * Sent: * Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:02:26 PM
>
>   I get on an airplane very infrequently, even less so now that the TSA
> is out of control.  I go to bed every night.  My friend's dad stopped
> someone from climbing through his bedroom window a number of years ago by
> the simple expedient of pointing a large revolver in his face.  This had a
> deterrent effect; the suspected burglar backed out the window quickly and
> ran off, probably to go get a change of underwear.  You live long enough,
> something strange will happen.  Better to be prepared.
>
> Gun safety is an issue.  Many newer guns have extra safety features.  I
> hope they continue to innovate in this area.  Certainly there is much more
> that can be done to reduce firearm-related accidents.
>
> Paul
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>;
> vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:55 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>
> Paul,
>
> Again you are mistaken about the facts. Do some research. If you live in a
> high crime district, having a gun might provide more safety than potential
> for harm. If not, the potential for harm is greater. Those are the facts.
> No matter how much confidence you have in yourself, living in Moscow, ID
> your gun is much more likely to do you harm than good. I promise you that
> (unfortunately) we are much more likely to read about someone committing
> suicide with a firearm, or harming another, than protecting him- or herself
> in this particular town.
>
> Think of this analogy. Would you ever think of bringing a parachute aboard
> an airplane? Well, there was a time when it was much more probable that you
> would die in a plane crash than via a home invasion. (I'm not sure of the
> statistics now; not many people die on commercial airlines.) If you were to
> bring a parachute aboard a plane, you would be perceived as suffering from
> wild paranoia. Of course there is a chance the plane will go down but (a)
> it is very unlikely and (b) very unlikely to help were a situation to arise
> (remember the point I made yesterday that in order for a gun to be useful
> it has to be loaded and available for use, yet that increases the
> likelihood of accident).
>
> I'm sorry but you and others who are unyielding about gun control seem as
> paranoid as a guy with a parachute boarding an airplane. The analogy is
> very close. But the difference is that the proliferation of guns increases
> risks of gun violence for all of us, as the Sandy Hook episode shows. It
> isn't just a personal liberty debate; it is a public harm debate, as well.
> We have a history of sacrificing liberties in order to prevent harms.
> Again, I don't always agree with these choices and we need to be very
> cautious about how to proceed. But to dismiss gun control as an option
> based on some flawed view of liberty is unwise.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> What was I thinking?  Home invasions never happen.
>
> Paul
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; Sue Hovey <
> suehovey at moscow.com>; vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2012 8:44 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>
> Paul Rumelhart tells us:
>
> "Yet I'd still prefer having one available if I ever needed one."
>
> Paranoia . . . Self-Destroya!
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares"
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yet I'd still prefer having one available if I ever needed one.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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