[Vision2020] The Petition
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 20 09:21:19 PST 2012
There are underlying problems that cause these shootings that are being shunted aside in favor of gun control legislation. Why, exactly, did this guy do what he did? If we knew that, we might be able to answer the question of whether or not he would have done it in the absence of freely-available guns, as well as to start looking for solutions that would stop these kinds of events before they start. I doubt it was simply the availability of guns. I doubt his motivation was that he was bored, here was a nifty AR15, "might as well make use of it".
For example, the Columbine shootings appear to have been motivated, at least in part, by bullying from other students. Yet the focus on the national stage was never "stop bullying!", it was "ban guns!". I'm doubtful that if they didn't have access to guns that they wouldn't have done something.
Guns are real, physical objects for which we already have laws covering their use. Many of these laws could be tightened to some degree, which makes them an easy scapegoat. Focusing solely on them, however, will do little to solve the actual problems at hand. The real problem is that the best solutions are *hard*. For example, you mention controlling access to "folks that shouldn't have them". How, exactly, do you determine who should and who shouldn't have access to them, given that the right to have access to them is spelled out in the Constitution?
Paul
________________________________
From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
To:
Cc: vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition
Paul,
Just like Roger you are building your argument on a defective premise or on assumptions. You don't know how much planning 'they' put in. You say, 'If the
people that commit these atrocities didn't have guns readily
available, they would have stolen them or bought them on the black
market.'
How do you know? How do you know it would happen every time? Let's pretend one could not legally buy an AR15 variant (or any other high capacity semi-automatic). Would this kid's mother have gone out and bought one illegally? You don't know that. And in this world I just made, these guns are going to be a whole lot more expensive on the black market. How many of 'them' are going to be priced out of that market?
How do you know they're going to make car bombs? It's a lot easier to pick up the gun in the other room, or to take it our of the safe, than it is to build a car bomb.
Why should we accept your assumption, 'If these guys had really wanted to make their statements
or whatever they thought they were doing, they could have made
pipe bombs or a few molotov cocktails from common household
chemicals. They could have ran their victims over with a
vehicle. They could have terrorised them with a chainsaw, or set
the school on fire.'
Well, maybe some of those things might happen, but I think it's more unlikely than not.
I'm not advocating banning gun ownership, but I think we need to be thinking intelligently about how to control access to them by the folks who shouldn't have them. I don't think we can absolutely prevent all such access, but we can certainly improve on what we're doing now. And I think part of thinking about it intelligently is by not accepting bad premises for arguments.
Sunil
________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:04:42 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition
These shootings don't just happen spur of the moment. They are
planned and prepared for for a long time beforehand. If the
people that commit these atrocities didn't have guns readily
available, they would have stolen them or bought them on the black
market. If these guys had really wanted to make their statements
or whatever they thought they were doing, they could have made
pipe bombs or a few molotov cocktails from common household
chemicals. They could have ran their victims over with a
vehicle. They could have terrorised them with a chainsaw, or set
the school on fire.
The sad fact is that the price we would have to pay to truly
protect ourselves from these kinds of incidents is just too damned
big. We would have to give up too many of our liberties for too
little gain. Meanwhile, orders of magnitudes more people will die
from cancer, heart attacks, traffic accidents, and other common
causes.
The same thing goes for protecting ourselves from terrorists.
It's too costly, both in money and in civil liberties, and all
we've done is made it worse.
I don't know what the answer is. I just have an ugly feeling that
whatever gestates from this current climate of fear and outrage
will be worse than the current situation. The Law of Unintended
Consequences is real and should be given due respect. We
shouldn't just jump at the nearest boogie man, whether it's
assault weapons or large magazines, without giving it the careful
thought it requires. I doubt we are in a position to have that
conversation on a national stage right now.
In both cases (school shootings and terrorist attacks) the root
causes are complex and are for the most part being ignored.
Another sad fact is that in this world of sound bites and instant
Internet memes no politician is going to look at the real causes.
They will look for the low-hanging fruit, and pretend it's more
than just putting a bandaid on a gaping wound.
Paul
On 12/18/2012 09:20 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
Matt,
>
>This sounds sensible. Again, I don't have a "plan" about what to
do. More interested in exploring solutions -- and this does just
that. I like the idea of stronger background checks.
>
>Note too that if you think of the latest episodes of gun violence
-- the ones we've all heard about at least -- gun theft did not
play a role. Most of the shooters were young, as well. In general,
the school shooters were young and required their guns from family
members, or purchased them themselves. These are not folks who are
stealing guns.
>
>Joe
>
>
>On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Joe,
>>
>>I believe some want to ban these guns but allow current
owners to be grandfathered in. This could allow these guns
to be on the streets for years to come. I agree with
stronger regulation into the future owners of guns. Maybe
a longer waiting period along with stronger background
checks. Classes or prior military would help as well.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:06:10 -0800
>>To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition
>>
>>
>>This makes no sense. Just to use an example, if you banned assault rifles, no one could steal them. I'm not saying that's what we should do. But we should look at ALL possible solutions. Again, research Australia and gun control. Best, Joe
>>
>>On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>They steal the guns. So I don't think the laws would change the situation, unless you ban their production.
>>>
>>>Donovan J. Arnold
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>>To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>>>Cc: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:49 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition
>>>
>>>
>>>Some form of gun control has got to be part of the solution. And I believe all the guns used in recent shootings were legally purchased. That's why some form of gun control has got to be part of the solution. Australia did it, so can we
>>>
>>>On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Donovan
Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Gun laws are not the answer to this problem. Not allowing for the public release of the gunman's name would go further then gun laws, as they usually do it for fame. Education of staff, students, and community members, and better protection of schools would also help. This kid did not get the guns legally, and no reasonable restrictive gun law would have prevented it. There are a host of other things that would have helped though.
>>>>
>>>>Donovan J. Arnold
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>>>>To: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:54 PM
>>>>Subject: [Vision2020] The Petition
>>>>
>>>><image.jpeg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>>"Moscow Cares"
>>>>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>
>>>>Tom Hansen
>>>>Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
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>>>>List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>>
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>
>
>
>======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com =======================================================
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http://www.fsr.net
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