[Vision2020] [Spam 3.80] Re: [Spam 5.30] Re: [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?( corrected)
Art Deco
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
Tue Dec 18 04:25:38 PST 2012
Yes, Roger.
Let's get all those generous, socially aware, caring, and responsible Idaho
GOP congressmen to discuss, design, and implement such a program.
w.
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:47 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> Carl
> Thanks for your comments. Prison will probably make their problems worse.
> Something else should be tried. The current system is inadequate.
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [Spam 3.80] Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 5.30] Re: [Spam 4.41] Do We
> Have the Courage to Stop This?( corrected)
> From: "Carl Westberg" **
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: 12/18/12 00:08:02
>
> Roger, you say "concentrate on mental health". Great. This is an excerpt
> from the article I provided a link to earlier written by the mother of a 13
> year old, very troubled boy, and what the mental health system has been
> like. Any ideas?
> "When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the
> only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's
> back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the
> only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention
> to you unless you've got charges."
>
> I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment
> exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with
> the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using
> prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to
> Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons
> quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise-in fact, the rate of
> inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the
> non-incarcerated population. (
> http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled
> )
>
> With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now
> the last resort for the mentally ill-Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and
> Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers
> in 2011 (
> http://www.npr.org/2011/09/04/140167676/nations-jails-struggle-with-mentally-ill-prisoners
> )
>
> No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his
> snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on
> mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with
> other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant.
> A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say,
> "Something must be done."
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:00:19 -0800
> To: lfalen at turbonet.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 5.30] Re: [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the
> Courage to Stop This?( corrected)
>
> This is terrible argument. Why do conservatives always use it? Criminals
> will always break the law. If that is a reason not to have a gun laws, then
> it is a reason not to have laws at all.
>
> On Dec 17, 2012, at 2:25 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=lfalen@turbonet.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> It should be obvious. Honest people will obey the law, criminals will not.
> They will either steal them or get them on the black market. Also it will
> embolden criminals it they think honest people do not have guns. It should
> also be pointed out that there are plenty of other ways to kill people,
> bombs for instance. Concentrate on mental health and improving safety at
> the schools. Although Sandy Hoook had good security, other schools do not.
> Nothing is fail safe.
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [Spam 5.30] Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage
> to Stop This?( corrected)
> From: "Sunil Ramalingam"
> To: "vision 2020"
> Date: 12/17/12 22:02:22
>
> Roger,
>
> You say 'It is down right stupid to think that making gun ownership
> illigal will prevent this sort of thing.'
>
> Why?
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:15:34 +0100
> To: lfalen at turbonet.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=lfalen@turbonet.com>;
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=art.deco.studios@gmail.com>;
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop
> This?( corrected)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
> From: lfalen
> To: "Art Deco" , vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> Date: 12/17/12 21:02:00
>
>
>
> It is down right stupid to think that making gun ownership illigal will
> prevent this sort of thing. However some of the recommendations made by
> Kistoff might make sense. While to date no mass killing has been stopped by
> someone else carrying a gun, it may have cut down on the number if someone
> there had a gun. Overall areas where concealed carry is legal gun crime
> has been reduced. Requiring gun safety training before a permit is isssued
> makes sense. I think safety traing shold also be required to get a hunting
> licence. Concealed carry is better than open carry. This way crimminals do
> not know who is armed and who is not. It is hard to understand what
> motivates these people. In the posssibility that part of it may be to make
> a name for themselves, it might help if the names of these people were
> never reported.
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [Spam 4.41] [Vision2020] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
> From: "Art Deco"
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> Date: 12/17/12 12:58:32
>
>
> [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> December 15, 2012
> Do We Have the Courage to Stop This? By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/nicholasdkristof/index.html>
>
> IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one
> thought wells in my mind: Why can't we regulate guns as seriously as we do
> cars?
> The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not
> that we have lunatics or criminals - all countries have them - but that we
> suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.
> Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered
> with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David
> Hemenway <https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/faculty/david-hemenway/>, a public
> health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun
> violence.
> So let's treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis
> that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically
> isn't going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage.
> American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern
> stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus
> drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The
> only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.
> The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of
> regulations about ladders<http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10839>,
> while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill
> around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000<http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-05-07/news/bs-ed-guns-letter-20110507_1_gun-violence-gun-injuries-bin>
> .
> We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips - but lawmakers don't
> have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and
> regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the
> contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven,
> feckless politicians who won't stand up to the N.R.A.?
> As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting,
> "It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun."
> Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my
> dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is
> fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use
> headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can't we be
> equally adult about regulating guns?
> And don't say that it won't make a difference because crazies will always
> be able to get a gun. We're not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more
> than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths
> by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.
> Likewise, don't bother with the argument that if more people carried guns,
> they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill
> themselves or are promptly caught, so it's hard to see what deterrence
> would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any
> cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped
> a mass shooting.
> The tragedy isn't one school shooting, it's the unceasing toll across our
> country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months
> than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars
> in Afghanistan and Iraq combined <http://icasualties.org/>.
> So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one
> a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of
> high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can't kill as many people without
> reloading.
> We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with
> private sales. Let's make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back
> California<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/us/code-on-shell-casings-sparks-a-gun-debate.html?pagewanted=all>in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each
> shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.
> "We've endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,"
> President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He's right, but
> the solution isn't just to mourn the victims - it's to change our policies.
> Let's see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.
> Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of
> 35 people galvanized the nation's conservative prime minister<http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/brothers-in-arms-yes-but-the-us-needs-to-get-rid-of-its-guns-20120731-23ct7.html>to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The "national firearms agreement," as
> it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for
> licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.
> The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of
> firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely
> to be used in mass shootings.
> In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings - but
> not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate
> with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data
> compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center<http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/files/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf>,
> and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.
> Or we can look north to Canada<http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/moving-emmenager-eng.htm>.
> It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a
> clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching
> for them.
> For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto
> safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws
> or behave irresponsibly. But we don't shrug and say, "Cars don't kill
> people, drunks do."
> Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash
> safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and
> tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced
> America's traffic fatality rate<http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811346.pdf>per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.
> Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And
> if we don't treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of
> your children will die because of our failure.
> I invite you to comment on this column on my blog, On the Ground<http://www.nytimes.com/ontheground>.
> Please also join me on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/kristof> and
> Google+ <https://plus.google.com/102839963139173448834/posts?hl=en>,
> watch my YouTube videos <http://www.youtube.com/nicholaskristof> and
> follow me on Twitter <http://twitter.com/nickkristof>.
>
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com<http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=art.deco.studios%40gmail.com>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=Vision2020%40moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
> ------------------------------
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=Vision2020%40moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
> ======================================================= List services made
> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=Vision2020@moscow.com>=======================================================
>
> ------------------------------
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=Vision2020%40moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
> ======================================================= List services made
> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com=======================================================
>
> ------------------------------
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n[p][main]=win.main.tree&_n[p][content]=mail.compose&to=Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
--
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20121218/29c49b41/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list