[Vision2020] Religion, Moscow Billboards, and the First Amendment (Part 2)

[Art Deco]

@Scott,

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  Not only do I have no objection to schools
teaching facts about religion in comparative religion classes, I very
strongly support such classes.  I also support the teaching of philosophy
of religion, i.e., discussion of the philosophical issues, particularly the
logical and epistemological issues raised by belief in religion and other
supernatural belief systems.

What I object to is masquerading religious beliefs/fantasies as facts or
high probabilities.

It has been my experience that such classes mentioned above have profound
effects on many people's religious beliefs and their perspectives on
religion.

@Scott & Donovan:

Donovan writes:

"Don't assume why people believe in God, just accept and respect that they
do, and we will accept and respect that you don't."

Let's s see.

There are two issues here at least.

1.  Since belief drives behavior, it is important that the beliefs driving
behaviors have some reasonable probability of being true.  Briefly, there
are a host of religious beliefs all contradictory with each other in some
substantial way.  Hence, at most one, if any of them can be true.  Further,
outside of the testing of each set of beliefs for logical consistency,
there is no method at present to determine the truth of any of them.  Even
restricting religious beliefs to Christianity leaves the problem of the
lack of agreement between Christians on most of the major ethical issues of
our time. So far there is no repeatable, verifiable evidence which offers
even a hint of confirmation of any major religion and its myriad offshoots.
But those that fail the test of logical consistency can't be true.

2.  Religious beliefs drive certain behaviors which in my opinion are
harmful: racism, homophobia, sexism, theocracy, etc.  To the extent that
the Tea Party and its allies are driven by religious beliefs their
anti-education, anti-science, anti-help-the-unfortunate beliefs and
derivative actions are harmful to many and can only lead to our country's
continuing to fall behind in global competitiveness and the need to face
the reality of climate change, diminishing potable water, etc.

Hence teaching children who soon will bear the burden of solving various
very difficult problems to rely on fantasy instead of testable knowledge
derived by careful and repeatable research is in my opinion child abuse.
Its called lying.

w.


On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:

> This discussion is getting out of hand. There is an pretense of
> disagreement about some issues where there is no actual disagreement. NO
> one is denying that Wilson etc. have a right to go before city council. We
> are already there, Scott. All of us.
>
> Likewise most of us get it that the billboard is offensive, Donovan. We
> get that. And you get that the first amendment protects one's right to
> offend -- for instance, most of us accept that something one says might
> offend another and that in and of itself is no reason to deprive one of the
> right to say it. You get that; and so do I; and so does Tom etc.
>
> However, there are some important issues here worth discussing. Should
> Wilson et. al. have wasted council's time on this issue? Of course, we all
> have the right to waste council's time on a spectrum of issues. But should
> we do it? Certainly not just because we have the right. Bringing this issue
> up before City Council is wrong for a variety of reasons -- as people have
> already noted. It is, if nothing else, a waste of time.
>
> And there's the issue of whether or not it is ever appropriate to drag
> one's recently sick daughter into public, political debate. Does he have
> the right to do that? Yes. Should he do it? No way. Never. That is a bad
> thing to do.
>
> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Christianity, Islam, and Judaism is a fact. Billions around the world
>> practice what they believe is a form of it. I don't have a problem with
>> someone not believing in God. But I am rightfully offended for someone to
>> claim people that believe in God or a superior being or beings do so
>> because they have stupid naive childlike minds that don't understand
>> science. This is arrogant thinking because many people believe in God
>> because of the evidence God has presented to them as an individual in their
>> life. You mock billions and their personal experiences only because you
>> have not had the experiences they have had. I feel sorrow for these people,
>> and pray they seek the evidence they so desperatly need to fill the
>> giant hole they have in their life, heart and mind that there is something
>> out there bigger and smarter than them waiting for them to find and be
>> embraced by. I would be empty without my faith and God. I can only the
>> imagine that horror of being stuck an atheist seeking something with only a
>> human understanding of science that science cannot ever expose. Believing
>> everyday was a chance, and that love, and my meaning in life were simply a
>> fictitious story written by our imaginations, how empty a life. Don't
>> assume why people believe in God, just accept and respect that they do, and
>> we will accept and respect that you don't.
>>
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>>   *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 8, 2012 4:00 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Religion, Moscow Billboards, and the First
>> Amendment (Part 2)
>>
>> One could easily argue that teaching children that Christianity, Islam,
>> Judaism, or etc as fact rather than fantasy based on faith/hope is child
>> abuse, and abuse which can have an long term deleterious consequences.
>>
>> w.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 4:05 AM, Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>wrote:
>>
>>  Paul, after listening to Judd Wilson’s & his pal Greg Evan’s
>> complaints, they think that their offense at having their Christianity
>> “mocked” on a billboard (you can bet neither would give a rip if the
>> Islamic faith was a specific target since both men supported a candidate
>> who distributed an ugly attack on that faith) is more important than the
>> First Amendment.****
>> ** **
>> No, the City didn’t put up the billboard nor does it own the billboard or
>> the land.  The billboard & land are privately owned AFAIK, and the American
>> Humanist Association (AHA) paid for the content, just like they’ve done
>> periodically for several years now.****
>> ** **
>> As Ted pointed out, Christianity isn’t specifically targeted on the
>> billboard, but both Christian men took offense nonetheless, and I doubt
>> either would care if some other religion had been targeted as neither men
>> are known for their religious tolerance or acceptance.****
>> ** **
>> Additionally, Judd Wilson stooped to a particularly low level dragging
>> his young child into the argument when his comments make it clear that it
>> wasn’t his daughter who was offended but rather he himself.  Not that it
>> would matter, IMHO:  when a child’s offense at being pressured (I hope they
>> aren’t still required!) to participate or witness in vivisection doesn’t
>> matter, mere words on a billboard certainly don’t.****
>> ** **
>> As to why they took it to the City Council, I imagine they were hoping
>> they could sucker the City into a costly effort to suppress the First
>> Amendment.  Religious bigots like those men have a long history, especially
>> in this area, of trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on
>> the rest of us.  I imagine they were hoping they could whip enough other
>> religious bigots (similar to 2004) into a frenzy to get the City to do
>> something stupid.****
>> ** **
>> I don’t know why Judd Wilson thinks the billboard is any different than
>> the unsolicited offensive crap pretending to be a legit newspaper he sent
>> out via the USPS.****
>> ** **
>> Oh, wait, I guess I do know:  it’s just another example of rank
>> hypocrisy.  His personal offense matters; no one else’s does.****
>> ** **
>> ** **
>> ** **
>> Saundra****
>> Moscow, ID****
>> ** **
>> Compassion is the basis of all morality.****
>> ~ Arthur Schopenhuaer****
>> ** **
>> ** **
>> ** **
>> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:
>> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe Campbell
>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 07, 2012 3:50 PM
>> *To:* Paul Rumelhart
>> *Cc:* Lois; Friends of the Clearwater; Moscow Vision 2020; Jeanne
>> McHale; Fritz Knorr; Friends of the Palouse Ranger District
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Religion, Moscow Billboards, and the First
>> Amendment (Part 2)****
>>  ** **
>> Another good question! My answer: Because by bringing it to the City of
>> Moscow he'll get more attention.****
>>  On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:****
>>   ** **
>>  I don't understand why he's petitioning the city council.  Did the City
>> of Moscow put that billboard up?  Do they own the land or the billboard
>> itself?  Does he think it's breaking the law in some way?****
>>  ** **
>>  Sorry if it's all laid out in the video, I haven't had the time to
>> watch it yet.****
>>  ** **
>>  Paul****
>>  ** **
>>    *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Lois <loisb at q.com>; Friends of the Clearwater <
>> foc at friendsoftheclearwater.org>; Moscow Vision 2020 <
>> vision2020 at moscow.com>; Jeanne McHale <jeannemchale at hotmail.com>; Fritz
>> Knorr <fritzknorr at gmail.com>; Friends of the Palouse Ranger District <
>> fprd09 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 7, 2012 3:31 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Religion, Moscow Billboards, and the First
>> Amendment (Part 2)****
>> ** **
>>  Good point, Ted. Joe****
>>  On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ****
>> I'm listening to this presentation at this moment, and it appears that
>> Wilson thinks the billboard was specifically aimed at Christianity, when
>> given what I saw on this billboard, it does not target Christianity any
>> more than any religion that has "God" as a belief.  The billboard indeed
>> could apply to Islam or Judaism, etc. or even perhaps belief in "Gaia"
>> which some think is a unscientific "God" substitute for pagans.
>> ------------------------------------------
>> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett****
>>   On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>    Mayor Chaney's, and the Moscow City Council's, Response to Judd
>> Wilson's November 19th Complaint****
>> ** **
>>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoozIpwfo5U****
>>    ****
>>  [image: image.jpeg]****
>>  ** **
>>  Stay tuned, Visionaires, because . . .****
>>  ** **
>>  "Moscow Cares"****
>>  http://www.moscowcares.com/****
>>    ****
>>  Tom Hansen****
>>  Moscow, Idaho****
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net/
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================****
>> ** **
>>
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net/
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net/
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>


-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20121209/23beb4af/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 69049 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20121209/23beb4af/attachment-0001.jpg>