[Vision2020] The one argument I can make in favor of being 'pro-life'

Wed Aug 29 20:17:29 PDT 2012

Scott,

I am with you and appreciate the dialog as well. I could not agree more that abortion is a very complicated issue. I personally don't agree with abortion from a moral standpoint except in cases when the health of the mother is at serious risk or the fetus would naturally abort. 

However, I agree 100% that the government should not be permitted to extend its authority to include the organs of citizens, including reproduction. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The one argument I can make in favor of being 'pro-life'

You are bringing some very good and very valid points Donovan.  My goal is not to dissuade you from your fundamental viewpoint regarding abortion, but to merely point out that things can get very, very complicated with pregnancies and family dynamics and that with so many different factors that are involved, trying to impose legal restrictions just makes for bad law if you look forward to how things will play out in the courts based on previous abortion restrictions.  For example, a friends of mine had a trisomy 18 pregnancy (different from trisomy 21 aka Down's Syndrome) and knew that if she carried her pregnancy to full term that her baby would die without 24 hours of being born.  Should there be a general law in place to prevent abortions for this type of extreme example noting that a trisomy 18 pregnancy would not trigger an exception clause of 'life of the mother'?  I don't think so, and if such a law were to be created, my guess is that is
 would very quickly be challenged and would be struck down as unconstitutional based on 'undue burden' which is exactly where are now legally with how far abortion restrictions can reach.

Thanks for the discussion.  This was probably the most cordial abortion discussion I've ever been involved with.  It's not a pleasant subject matter, but it is a fact of life & death.

Cheers,

-Scott

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:08:49 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The one argument I can make in favor of being 'pro-life'
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; scooterd408 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Saundra,

If a person aborts a child because of its genetic heritage, a non-life threatening disability, gender, or sexual orientation it is wrong to me. I don't approve of an abortion simple because the baby will have Down's. That is a nasty reason to abort a fetus. If there is another complication or health factor that is different. But I don't believe that 92% of fetuses with Down's would result in a natural abortion. 

Further, I don't believe that Down's is an aberration of nature, or anyone born with what society considers a birth defect as aberration of nature. In fact, I think deviations from the norm are what make us unique people and usually what advances society. We should all be aborted if a birth defect or genetic flaw is a reason, as none of us is born perfect or will have a perfect life. 

I think if someone aborts a baby, by my definition of that act, they are pro-choice, regardless of what else they claim or how they act. I think most pro-choice women and men would not actually participate in an abortion just for the sake or inconvenience a baby in their life at that point might create. 

Many people I have taken care of have had poor qualities of life by our definition and would most likely have been terminated if the parents knew and were able to abort them. But what people fail to realize is that many of these people that society think we should abort or terminate and label "defective", bring so much joy, and love, and humanity to those that get to be a part of their lives. My aunt, who was suppose to die at birth, and had severe mental disabilities, was one of the best people I ever knew and brought more joy to Moscow then anyone else I have know. When she died, the entire church was packed with people to say their goodbyes, including the mayor. So I disagree with your statements, and disregard the statistics as meaningless numbers when it comes to humanity and societies overall mental health. 

Saundra, I will get back to you on your other post, I have stuff I have to do tonight. You have a good rest of your day, I enjoy this discussion, and I like hearing your and others viewpoints. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
To: 'Donovan Arnold' <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 'Scott Dredge' <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; 'viz' <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The one argument I can make in favor of being 'pro-life'

Nope, sorry – that is a bridge too far for me to keep my mouth shut.

Is it genocide, Donovan, that 75% of trisomy 21 pregnancies terminate naturally prior to birth?

And is it genocide, Donovan, that 20-30% of babies born with DS die naturally during the first year of life?  In the US, about 6000 DS babies are born each year, and somewhere between 1200-1800 of those babies die during their first year of life, sometimes with a lot of suffering prior to death.

One could describe trisomy 21 pregnancies that don’t self-abort prior to birth as aberrations of nature.  Given that nature terminates the vast majority of trisomy 21 pregnancies in utero, and nature kills 20-30% of those born with DS during the first year of life, it’s hyperbole for you to characterize voluntary terminations as “genocide.”

As for your touching story about the young woman with DS you helped live independently, I have those stories, too . . . quite a few of them.  But, I also have stories about caring for DS children & adults who would never be able to live independently and who had – at best – very poor qualities of lives that were heartbreakingly tragic in many, many ways.

What I learned is that it’s not my business to think I know better than the individual women choosing to continue or terminate any pregnancy, and I’m stunned you don’t understand that.  You’re worried about women being forced to have abortions, and it’s damn disappointing you don’t care just as much about forcing women to continue pregnancies they’ve decided aren’t best to be continued.

And, you are dead wrong about your characterization of pro-choice women.  What the majority of us believe is that the pregnant woman, in consultation with her health care professional, who have the right to determine whether to continue a pregnancy or terminate it, not the government or anyone else.  That is not at all the same thing as being more likely to terminate a pregnancy, and shame on you for perpetuating that phony stereotype.

And, as a matter of fact, I know quite a few “pro-life” women who have had abortions due to their individual situations who remain “pro-life.”

I also know a whole lot of “pro-life” women & men who support capital punishment.

A more correct characterization of those you refer to as “pro-life” is actually “anti-reproductive freedom for women & gung-ho for killing the already born.”

Oh, and Scott – that 1999 (based on data from the 1980s) article Dale so loved actually may not have been so accurate, but that’s no surprise as I never knew Dale to let facts get in his way.  For those interested, you might want to check out this article:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pd.2910/full
Another good read is:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/why-so-many-babies-are-still-being-born-with-down-syndrome/254869/

Saundra

From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 4:12 AM
To: Scott Dredge; viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The one argument I can make in favor of being 'pro-life'

Sounds like genocide of people with Down's Syndrome. How sad. I use to help a young woman with Down's live independently. She was a sweet kind angel with not a evil cell in her. How people can destroy such angels from heaven is beyond me. I worry they abort babies they think will be gay, or because of their race, or gender. 

As to your theory, Scott. I think that a pro-life woman is more like to have a baby with Down's because a pro-choice woman would be far more likely to abort it. Older women are also statistically more likely to have a baby with Down's and older women are statistically more likely to be pro-life as well. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From:Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:25 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] The one argument I can make in favor of being 'pro-life'

I loved the stats Dale posted on his site.  For instance, he had polling data that showed with some kooky accounting that 'The majority of Americans are pro-life'.  Shortly thereafter, he had a post titled 'Search and Destroy' which showed that 92% of Down's Syndrome pregnancies are aborted.  So let's say that both of these statistics are roughly accurate, but for crunching numbers more quickly let's say:
	* 50% of American women are pro-life and the other 50% are pro-choice
	* 90% of Down's Syndrome pregnancies are aborted (assume all these abortions are by self described 'pro-choice' women)
	* 10% of Down's Syndrome pregnancies are carried to term (assume all these births are by hard core pro-life women who are also NOT pro-choice for other women)

Clearly these numbers show that that by being 'pro-life', a woman SIGNIFICANTLY reduces her risk of having a Down's Syndrome pregnancy.  I welcome any / all comments to blow holes in my theory.

-Scott

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