[Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates

Thu Aug 23 11:43:56 PDT 2012

I saw an interview that Ryan has where he said that the legislation they
have passed about abortion and only allowing forcible rape abortions was a
"good start".  What do you think this suggests!?!?!

Andy Boyd

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Nicholas Gier
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:08 AM
To: Joe Campbell
Cc: vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates

Hi Roger,

Don't pretend that you don't know about the extreme abortion legislation and
Ryan and Akin cosponsored with the phrase "justifiable rape" in it.  I
repeat my question to you: do you support a V-P candidate with such radical
views? If Akin has to go, so does Ryan, and so does every Republican who
supports a GOP plank that does not exempt rape--legitimate or otherwise.

Hi Joe,

It's very rare that I disagree with you, but abortion is a profound moral
issue that philosophers have an obligation to address so as to inform those
who make the law.  And, as I have repeatedly done on this list, strong
arguments can be made for the pro-choice position.

Ironically, Paul Ryan now says that he follows Thomas Aquinas and not Ayn
Rand. Aquinas, however, supported canon law, which held that abortion was
permissible through the first trimester. (This was not changed until 1917.)
His doctrine of the soul, drawn from Aristotle, actually was in line with
Roe v. Wade.  Our moral, legal, and religious tradition always supported
"choice" in early pregnancy and the facts of fetal physiology support that
tradition.

Ayn Rand believed in woman's right to choose and I believe that should be
the libertarian position as well.

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:19 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
wrote:

Roger and other conservatives oversimplify the abortion debate. The debate
isn't the philosophical debate Roger tries to engage in: whether or not
abortion is morally permissible. That is a debate about which no consensus
will ever be reached. It doesn't have the kind of clarity needed for matters
of the law.

The real is really a matter of individual choice and religious freedom. Do
Roger or Akin or Ryan etc. have the right to settle a very complex and
personal issue for everyone else? The answer to that is clearly 'No' and one
would have to be pretty arrogant to think otherwise.

On Aug 22, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Well I wouldn't call myself a Democrat, but I am definitely extreme on
abortion rights:

- Whether or not to abort a pregnancy at ANY time during the pregnancy for
ANY reason is the choice of the woman
- In cases where the pregnancy threatens the life of the pregnant woman, she
should not be forced against her will to terminate the pregnancy
- A baby completely outside the womb of its mother should be treated /
protected

As far as your condition that 'abortion should not be used as a form of
birth control', why not?  There is no form of birth control that is 100%
effective at preventing pregnancy.  Thus, when whatever non-perfect (pick
any one) birth control being used has failed, then abortion is a perfectly
justifiable reason to terminate a pregnancy that was unintended and unwanted
in the first place.  You know what might be a good idea Roger?  Maybe men
should just stop knocking up women against their wishes and there would be
far fewer unwanted / unintended pregnancies that end up being aborted.

Google up 'Paul Ryan forcible rape' and let us know your thoughts.  My guess
is that these jokers don't want a 'rape exception' to abortion bans because
then women might 'lie about being raped' to get an abortion for their
unwanted pregnancy.  With a 'rape exception', the abortion ban will lack the
necessary teeth in it to allow state and local governments to force these
women to carry their unwanted pregnancies to term against their will.

-Scott

> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:53:30 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: ngier006 at gmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> 
> Nick
> Most social issues are not hot button items for me. I am more interested
in economic issues. In general though, I favor more freedom for the
individual and less interference by the government. I am nether strongly
pro-choice or pro-life, but tend to be closer to the pro-life position.
Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. In extremely rare
surrmonstances such as the life of the mother, her life should dominate. I
think that some of the positions of some democrats such as partial term
abortions and allowing a baby that survived aan attempted abortion is much
more extreme. Fortunately that is a minority opinion even for democrats.
> 
> I am not aware of the legislation you mentioned, but I doubt that there is
any such thing as justifiable rape.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Nicholas Gier ngier006 at gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:26:45 -0700
> To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> 
> > Hi Roger,
> > 
> > Where do you stand on the extreme, no exceptions GOP plank on abortion?
As
> > a local GOP leader you should tell us what you believe.
> > 
> > And do you support Ryan after he teamed up with Akin in proposing a bill
> > with "justifiable rape" in it, which is what Akin said he meant when he
> > said "legitimate rape." Fortunately the language was rejected. Ryan and
> > Akin are two peas in a pod with regard to social issues.
> > 
> > Inquiring mind wish to know.
> > 
> > Nick
> > 
> > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:12 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > The Republicans want him to drop out. His opponent wants him to stay
in.
> > > Apparently both sides think he will be easy to beat. The rumor has it
that
> > > Mccaskill's backers funneled a lot of money into his campaign in the
> > > primary.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Art Deco art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 06:11:15 -0700
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > >
> > > > V
> > > > [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/>
> > > >
> > > > <
> > > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto
<http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=wwwnytime
s.com/printer-friendly&pos=Position1&sn2=336c557e/4f3dd5d2&sn1=a36510e4/68ad
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2Frubysparks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > August 21, 2012
> > > > Akin Controversy Stirs Up Abortion Issue in Campaign By JENNIFER
> > > > STEINHAUER<
> > >
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/jennifer_steinh
auer/index.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > WASHINGTON - As an orator, Representative Todd
> > > > Akin<ttp://
> > >
topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/todd_akin/index.html?i
nline=nyt-per
> > > >of
> > > > Missouri may stand out for his clumsiness. But as a legislator, Mr.
> > > > Akin
> > > > has a record on abortion that is largely indistinguishable from
those of
> > > > most of his Republican House colleagues, who have viewed restricting
> > > > abortion rights as one of their top priorities.
> > > >
> > > > That agenda - largely eclipsed for two years by a protracted fiscal
> > > crisis
> > > > and the fight over how to manage the federal deficit - has wedged
its
> > > way,
> > > > for now at least, to the center of the 2012 campaign. It is focusing
> > > > attention on an issue that helped earn Mitt
> > > > Romney<
> > >
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/primaries/candidates/mitt-romney?inline=ny
t-per
> > > >,
> > > > the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, a reputation as a
> > > > flip-flopper, threatening the Republican quest for control of the
Senate,
> > > > and leaving Representative Paul D.
> > > > Ryan<
> > >
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/candidates/paul-ryan?inline=nyt-per>of
> > > > Wisconsin, Mr. Romney's vice-presidential pick, in the uncomfortable
> > > > position of distinguishing himself from Mr. Akin, with whom he has
often
> > > > concurred.
> > > >
> > > > It is an agenda that has enjoyed the support of House leaders,
including
> > > > Speaker John A. Boehner and Representative Eric Cantor, the majority
> > > > leader, who has called anti-abortion measures "obviously very
important
> > > in
> > > > terms of the priorities we set out initially in our pledge to
America."
> > > It
> > > > became inextricably linked to the near-shutdown of the federal
government
> > > > last year when an agreement to keep the government open was reached
only
> > > > after it was linked to a measure restricting abortion in the
District of
> > > > Columbia.
> > > >
> > > > Even as Congressional Republicans, including Mr. Boehner, denounced
Mr.
> > > > Akin's remark that victims of "legitimate rape" were able to somehow
> > > > prevent pregnancy, an agenda to roll back abortion is one that House
> > > > Republicans have largely moved in step with.
> > > >
> > > > In an anti-abortion measure once sponsored by Mr. Akin, Mr. Ryan and
> > > scores
> > > > of other Republican lawmakers, an exemption was made for victims of
> > > > "forcible" rape, though that word was later removed.
> > > >
> > > > *On Tuesday, Republicans approved platform language for next week's
> > > > nominating convention that calls for a constitutional amendment
outlawing
> > > > abortion with no explicit exceptions for cases of rape or incest.
That
> > > is a
> > > > view more restrictive than Mr. Romney's, who has said that he
supports
> > > > exceptions to allow abortions in cases of rape. *
> > > >
> > > > * *Mr. Ryan's more conservative views, which have been reflected in
votes
> > > > that would restrict family planning financing overseas, cut off all
> > > federal
> > > > funds to Planned Parenthood and repeal President Obama's health care
> > > > law<
> > >
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/
health_insurance_and_managed_care/health_care_reform/index.html?inline=nyt-c
lassifier
> > > >,
> > > > have come into sharp relief as Mr. Akin struggles for his political
life.
> > > > Mr. Akin and Mr. Ryan each have voted in this Congress for 10
> > > > abortion-restricting measures as well as those that limited other
family
> > > > planning services.
> > > >
> > > > Both Mr. Ryan and Mr. Romney have earned praise for their positions
from
> > > > the National Right to Life group and other anti-abortion
organizations.
> > > > "The right-to-life Romney/Ryan ticket is now complete," wrote
Barbara
> > > Lyons
> > > > and Sue Armacost, executive director and legislative director for
> > > Wisconsin
> > > > Right to Life, on the organization's Web site.
> > > >
> > > > It is a legislative theme Democrats plan to highlight, even as House
> > > > Republicans try to keep the focus on economic issues.
> > > >
> > > > "All you need to know is that the House Republicans were willing to
shut
> > > > down the government rather than fund Planned Parenthood," said
> > > > Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic leader, in an
e-mail on
> > > > Tuesday. "This is in keeping with their efforts - whether it's
> > > Congressman
> > > > Akin or Chairman Ryan or others - to deny investments in critical
women's
> > > > health services, weaken the definition of rape, and take away access
to
> > > > preventive care like cervical and breast cancer screenings."
> > > >
> > > > The House Republican agenda has troubled the half-dozen or so
Republican
> > > > House members whose views differ from those of their colleagues.
> > > >
> > > > "I have time and again spoken out against this to leadership," said
> > > > Representative Robert Dold of Illinois, who is in a tough
re-election
> > > > battle. "I've tried to talk to them about the issues that we ought
to be
> > > > moving forward on, like out-of-control spending."
> > > >
> > > > Mr. Dold has voted in favor of half of the abortion restriction
measures
> > > in
> > > > this Congress, far fewer than most of his colleagues. "There is no
> > > question
> > > > that there are times when I may disagree with a vote that's brought
to
> > > the
> > > > floor," he said in an interview, "and the majority of my Republican
> > > > colleagues, but that is just part of what we deal with every day."
> > > >
> > > > There have long been lawmakers, like Mr. Akin, whose main
legislative
> > > > agenda centers on the abortion issue. They got a boost after the
2010
> > > > election when a large group of conservative members joined them.
> > > >
> > > > Mr. Romney's views align with that of the Mormon Church, which
opposes
> > > > abortion except in cases of rape and incest or when the life of the
woman
> > > > is in danger. He has said he is personally opposed to abortion; as a
> > > Mormon
> > > > bishop in the 1980s he attempted to talk a congregant out of
terminating
> > > a
> > > > pregnancy after doctors advised her to do so because of a
potentially
> > > > lethal blood clot.
> > > >
> > > > But abortion has proved to be a politically volatile topic for Mr.
> > > Romney,
> > > > whose evolving views have disappointed liberals and stirred distrust
> > > among
> > > > conservatives.
> > > >
> > > > In 1994, when he challenged Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Mr. Romney
said he
> > > > would "not force our beliefs on others on that matter." In 2002, as
a
> > > > candidate for governor, he claimed to support "the substance" of Roe
v.
> > > > Wade. By 2005, though, when he was beginning to consider a
presidential
> > > > run, he had reversed course and described himself as a "pro-life
governor
> > > > in a pro-choice state." Now, as a presidential candidate, he refers
to
> > > > himself as solidly "pro-life."
> > > >
> > > > Aides to Mr. Romney declined to say on Tuesday whether he would call
on
> > > the
> > > > convention delegates to reconsider their position on abortion.
> > > >
> > > > Reince Priebus, the chairman of the Republican National Committee,
tried
> > > to
> > > > deflect questions on behalf of Mr. Romney, saying on Fox News that
"this
> > > is
> > > > the platform of the Republican
> > > > Party<
> > >
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/republic
an_party/index.html?inline=nyt-org
> > > >;
> > > > it is not the platform of Mitt Romney."
> > > >
> > > > The idea of outlawing any exceptions for abortion is not new in
American
> > > > political discourse or in legislation, nor are proposals to narrow
the
> > > > definition of rape to distinguish between what some call "forcible
rape"
> > > > and cases involving statutory rape or even some types of date rape.
> > > > Anti-abortion activists have long been concerned that women would
falsely
> > > > claim to have been raped to gain an exemption to terminate a
pregnancy.
> > > >
> > > > Historians and other experts on abortion politics say the
no-exceptions
> > > > idea became part of the debate virtually as soon as Roe v. Wade
legalized
> > > > abortion in 1973. "It has deep roots," said Donald Critchlow, a
historian
> > > > at Arizona State University who has studied abortion politics. He
added,
> > > > "It's appealing to segments within the Republican Party to show that
> > > you're
> > > > pro-life."
> > > >
> > > > Susan Cohen, director of government affairs for the Guttmacher
> > > Institute, a
> > > > research group in Washington that supports abortion rights, said the
> > > > no-exceptions idea is "not new and it's not fringe."
> > > >
> > > > "It is something that has been part of mainstream anti-abortion
> > > movement,"
> > > > she said. "The record is replete with evidence of the fact that
there was
> > > > this no-exceptions attitude, and of course this makes logical sense
from
> > > > the perspective of people who believe an embryo should have the same
> > > legal
> > > > status as you and I do."
> > > >
> > > > In the 1992 election, the Republican Party included in its platform
> > > > language opposing abortion, allowing no exceptions and calling for a
> > > > constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal. Similar language
> > > > opposing any exceptions was included in 2000 and 2004, even though
George
> > > > W. Bush also supported outlawing abortion except in cases of rape,
> > > incest,
> > > > or when the life of the woman was in danger.
> > > >
> > > > Four years ago, the Republican Party adopted a platform seeking an
> > > > unconditional ban on abortion, though its nominee, Senator John
McCain,
> > > had
> > > > urged the party in the past to allow certain exceptions. After this
> > > year's
> > > > abortion plank language was approved with little debate, the
chairman of
> > > > the platform committee, Gov. Bob McDonnell of Virginia, praised the
> > > > committee for "affirming our respect for human life."
> > > >
> > > > Pam Belluck and Michael Cooper contributed reporting from New York.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > > > art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> > 
> 
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