[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Saundra Lund
v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
Mon Aug 13 08:10:21 PDT 2012
In part, Paul wrote:
“But everybody took it for a call to arms or something.”
In all honesty, I didn’t take it that way.
OTOH, I find it incredibly difficult to give any serious thought to someone
who writes nonsense like:
“Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine. A student
who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the school might have been able
to have had a real impact on that event.”
But, that’s just me J
Saundra
Moscow, ID
We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.
~ Immanuel Kant
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 6:29 PM
To: Sunil Ramalingam
Cc: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
On 08/12/2012 02:50 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
I think that possibility is about as slim as Paul's suggestion that someone
with a CCW permit and a weapon may have stopped the bloodshed at Aurora.
That wasn't actually a suggestion. It was more along the lines of "I wonder
what I would do if I had a concealed weapon and the Aurora thing went down".
But everybody took it for a call to arms or something. I still don't know
what I would have done. I remember Robert Heinlein in one of books talking
about how it's sometimes best to go into a dangerous area armed with a knife
rather than a gun. The thinking is that the gun makes you too careless, the
knife makes you far more careful. In the same vein, I've heard it said that
it's safer to use a sharp knife than a dull one. The sharp knife demands
respect lest you cut yourself accidentally, the dull knife does not. But
you can still cut yourself with a dull knife. Ignoring the politics, what
do others think?
Paul
But I've heard the argument made at CCW classes that it's responsible people
who apply for such permits and who actually carry legally. While I generally
agree that most people with permits are law-abiding, the fact is that there
isn't any fool-proof way to make sure that only people who will use weapons
responsibly will actually receive such permits.
I say this as someone who supports such permits. But I don't think that the
training you need to get one in any way makes the average permit holder
capable of taking on someone like the guy in Aurora and stopping him; I
think that's just a fantasy.
Sunil
_____
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:01:59 -0700
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Very, very possibly . . .
Since he could not carry his weapon concealed, he may possibly have been
arrested earlir for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
Do you think his not having a concealed handgun permit would have stopped
this tragedy? Honest question, not a "zinger".
Paul
On 08/12/2012 12:28 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
Courtesy of the Huffington Post at:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/seattle-mass-shooting-lat_b_156
3392.html
-----------------------------------
Seattle Mass Shooting Latest by a Concealed Handgun Permit Holder
Posted: 06/01/2012 3:20 pm
Another day, another mass shooting committed by a private citizen legally
allowed to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in public.
This time it was 40-year-old
<http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Police-Seattle-shootings-were-like-a
n-execution-3599900.php#ixzz1wYVmZm5l> Ian Stawicki, who entered a Seattle
cafe on Wednesday and opened fire, killing four people. He then left Cafe
Racer, killing another person during a carjacking before taking his own
life.
The pro-gun reaction to this most recent slaughter by a concealed handgun
permit holder? That's life.
As pro-gun advocate Dave Workman, a loyal foot soldier in the pro-gun
publishing and lobbying empire of convicted felon Alan Gottlieb
<http://kuow.org/program.php?id=26924> explained to local NPR affiliate
KUOW:
"I don't know that there's anything you can do in these situations. We can't
treat him like a child, he's got his own life to live and he can make his
own mistakes no matter how horrific those mistakes turn out to be."
"Those mistakes" happen all too often. According to a
<http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm> running tally maintained by my
organization, the <http://www.vpc.org/index.htm> Violence Policy Center,
since May 2007, nearly 450 people have been killed in 334 non-self defense
incidents by private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns.
Not including this week's attack in Seattle, 20 of those incidents have been
mass shootings of three victims or more, resulting in the deaths of 89
innocent victims.
Listed below, they run the gamut from family annihilators to workplace
shooters, murder-suicides to attempted political assassination:
· In July 2011, in Texas, Tan Do, 35, opened fire at his son's 11th
birthday party being held at the Forum Roller World in Grand Prairie, Texas,
killing the boy's mother and four members of her family before taking his
own life.
· In June 2011, in Arizona, Carey H. Dyess, 73, went on an
hours-long shooting rampage in two communities, killing five before taking
his own life.
· In January 2011, in Arizona, Jared Lee Loughner, 22, opened fire
at a "Congress on Your Corner" constituent event held by Arizona U.S.
Representative Gabrielle Giffords outside a Tucson Safeway supermarket.
Loughner killed six people, including a federal judge and a nine-year-old
girl, and injured 13, including Giffords, who was shot once the face.
· In August 2010, in Connecticut, Omar Thornton, 34, went on a
shooting rampage at the beer distributorship where he worked, killing eight
co-workers before taking his own life.
· In June 2010, in Florida, Gerardo Regalado, 38, committed Hialeah,
Florida's worst mass shooting: killing four women and wounding three others
at the Yoyito Cafe-Restaurant.
· In March 2010, in Tennessee, Michael Joe Hood, 49, shot and killed
his sister Susan Hood Binkley, 44, her ex-husband Dale Binkley, 42, and
their 13-year-old son Jackson Binkley.
· In January 2010, in Virginia, Christopher Speight allegedly shot
and killed eight people including his sister and her husband, their
15-year-old daughter and four-year-old son, as well as two teenagers aged 15
and 16.
· In December 2009, in Utah, Justin Matern shot and killed his wife
and two sons, ages six and four, before turning the gun on himself.
· On Thanksgiving Day 2009, in Florida, Paul Michael Merhige
allegedly opened fire at his family's Thanksgiving dinner shooting six
relatives, killing four. The deceased victims were his twin sisters (one of
whom was pregnant), his 76-year-old aunt, and a six-year-old cousin. As he
left the scene, Merhige was quoted by one witness as saying, "I have been
waiting 20 years for this."
· In November 2009, in North Carolina, William Maxwell shot and
killed his wife Kathryn and their teenage children Conner and Cameron before
killing himself.
· In August 2009, in Pennsylvania, George Sodini, 48, opened fire at
an LA Fitness Center in Collier, Pennsylvania, killing three women and
wounding nine others before turning the gun on himself.
· In April 2009, in Pennsylvania, white supremacist Richard
Poplawski shot and killed police officers Stephen Mayhle, Paul Sciullo, and
Eric Kelly while injuring another.
· In March 2009, in Alabama, Michael McLendon, a self-proclaimed
survivalist, killed his mother at their family home, beginning a shooting
rampage that stretched across 24 miles. By the time McLendon took his own
life in the midst of a police shootout at a factory where he had previously
worked, he had shot four more relatives, including his 74-year-old
grandmother, and five strangers, including the wife and 18-month-old
daughter of a local sheriff's deputy.
· In February 2009, in New York, Frank Garcia opened fire with a .40
Glock pistol in the Lakeside Memorial Hospital parking lot in Brockport, NY.
He had recently been fired by the hospital. He shot three people there,
killing two, before killing a married couple at their home in Canandaigua.
· In September 2008, in Michigan, Troy Brake, 31, shot to death
52-year-old Sharmaine Zimmer, her sons, Tyler, 17, and Jeremy, 20, and beat
to death Jeremy's girlfriend, university student Katherine Brown, 18.
· In May 2008, in Virginia, Aaron Poseidon Jackson, 24, shot and
killed his two children, one-year-old Aaron Neptune Jackson and two-year-old
Nicole Aaron Jackson, and their mother Latasha Nicole Thomas, before taking
his own life.
· In March 2008, in Georgia, former substitute teacher Charles
Johnston entered Doctors Hospital in Columbus, Georgia, carrying three
handguns: a .32, a 380, and a 9mm. Johnson allegedly killed two people in
the hospital and a victim in the parking lot.
· In September 2007, in Florida, Guillermo Zarabozo and another man
hired a charter boat, later killing the boat's crew of four. Zarabozo was
found guilty of the four murders.
· In July 2007, in Ohio, firefighter Terrance Hough Jr. used a 40
caliber pistol to shoot and kill neighbor Jacob Feichtner as well as Bruce
Anderson and Katherine Rosby as a result of a dispute over fireworks the
three were setting off on the Fourth of July. Hough also shot and injured
two others. Hough's fellow firefighters described him as a "ticking time
bomb that finally exploded."
· In May 2007, in Idaho, Jason Kenneth Hamilton, a member of the
white supremacist group Aryan Nation, shot and killed his wife, a police
officer, and a church sexton, and wounded three others before turning the
gun on himself in a shooting spree in Moscow, Idaho. Hamilton had a
concealed handgun permit "
<http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf> despite a [previous]
domestic violence conviction that should have barred him from owning guns."
Because most states don't release detailed information on crimes committed
by concealed handgun permit holders, the incidents listed above are from
news reports. The actual number of lethal non-self defense incidents
involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns is
most likely far, far higher.
And yet, according to concealed carry advocate Dave Workman, concealed
handgun permit holder and mass shooter Ian Stawicki had "his own life to
live."
What about his victims and their families?
-----------------------------------
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, pony up your evidence. Since we seem to be so focused on high
visibility mass shootings, how many of those turned out worse because of
someone with a CWP permit? How many victims in such cases have been shot by
someone with a CWP returning fire?
I'm not exactly a gun nut, by the way, I'd never owned a gun before a couple
of years ago when I inherited one. I've shot a few, mostly when I was
younger. I would just like to talk about this as if I wasn't promoting a
side, but no one here has allowed that. Ever since my first post where I
wondered what would have happened in Aurora if someone had a concealed
firearm on their person I've ran headlong into a wall of (paraphrasing) "a
guy with a concealed handgun could in no way, ever, actually be helpful in
such a situation".
Just to test my understanding, can you conceive of a situation involving a
shooter on a killing spree where a responsible person with a concealed
weapon might actually have helped things?
Paul
On 08/12/2012 09:44 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
I'm not denying anyone anything. It is annoying that no matter how
carefully I state my points you keep characterizing them as something
else -- in this case as an example of "rabid anti-gun rhetoric." I'm
not anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment. In fact, I've taken my son
shooting on several occasions in the past few months, with a
knowledgeable friend who has been offering gun safety lessons as well.
I don't own a gun for the reasons I've stated: I am far more likely to
hurt myself or others with it than to help anyone. And so are you and
so is nearly everyone. That's been my only point. Start carrying a gun
around to "protect" yourself and you are FAR more likely to do harm
than good. Yours is a fear-driven attitude with absolutely no evidence
to support it. Statistics prove this, as well as the fact that you
can't find one single example of a person saving the day in a
(potential) spree-killing. Not one. Yet you continue to hold on to the
view that it is not a myth. Mine is a very simple, reasonable,
rational point backed by countless evidence. For you to turn it into
some type of radical view is egregious but I'll have to get used to it
since you do this all the time.
On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
I guess there's no point in looking for other examples. Pre-planned,
well-executed mass-murders just aren't common enough to give you those
statistics and the percentage of CWP holder is (I'm guessing) relatively
small, and most of these killing sprees happen in gun-free zones where
law-abiding permit holders wouldn't be armed anyway. This NY Times article
claims that the Aurora theater banned firearms (even to permit holders),
which places it in the category of "gun-free zones" too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-gun-laws-remain-lax-despite-ch
anges-after-columbine.html?_r=1
If someone had you pinned down in a dark theater and you feared for your
life wouldn't you want some way to defend yourself? I don't get this rabid
anti-gun rhetoric. I notice the ban firearms policy didn't stop James
Holmes from going on his killing spree. Metal detectors wouldn't have
helped, either, because he left and came back through the exit doors which
wouldn't have had them anyway. Even a complete firearms ban country-wide
wouldn't have helped because I doubt he would have had qualms about
purchasing guns on the black market. It might have taken him longer to
prepare, is all.
Short of a 1984-esque society, I don't know how you could stop this kind of
thing. Even if they were successful, this guy could have done what he did
with a satchel full of Molotov cocktails. So why not even the odds and allow
people the option of personal defense?
Paul
On 08/12/2012 07:10 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
But this is a case in which someone did not use a gun to defend
himself against the attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was up there
preaching, and I stepped off of there into a chair and on the rail
that went around, and I dove right off and grabbed the gun." The
Pastor had concealed weapons training but didn't use a gun to prevent
further harm.
Again, I have nothing against training, nothing against guns frankly
(though I think it is too easy to get guns in our country). My main
point is that guns usually do more harm than good. It is rare that
having a gun will actually help you and the evidence suggests that if
you own a gun you are far more likely to be harmed by it -- either by
accident or by an assailant taking it from you -- than you are of
protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC. Some links to news stories
about it:
http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/
-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-ch
urch/UPI-35931332729850/
http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-chur
ch-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
tl;dr version: A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out of
the trunk of his car during church services. He warns the congregation, and
locks the doors. The man kicks in a side door and is disarmed and wrestled
to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint by the guy with the
concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive. The shotgun the man had
brought was loaded, and he claims he was going to kidnap the pastor.
I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if that guy hadn't
acted quickly, I doubt anyone does. That's the trouble with this sort of
request as Gary alluded to. We don't know that this would have been a
tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
Paul
On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora type
situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths; can't be
sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know. Paul was talking
about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree killing. Any
examples of someone preventing that from happening with a handgun? Haven't
heard or seen of one yet.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented? How can you
know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting and not quit
till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did you acquire this
awesome ability to determine what might and might not have been?
g
From: Joe Campbell
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
To: Gary Crabtree
Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case like Aurora is
either true or false. If true, when and where?
The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing violence by any
means.
I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
government -- and it's everyone for himself.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of concealed is
keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods creation that you're
healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by some to be sure.
A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights to good effect:
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-a
t-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened had a different
path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are wounded and taken to
jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding their own business in a internet
café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
g
From: Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire. Firing in the
middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits would surely be
asking for trouble. However, it's my understanding that for a while during
the shooting the shooter had complete control of the situation. Anyone
trying to leave was shot. Many people were playing dead in the hopes they
would be passed over. Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body armor,
might distract him enough that some people might have made it to the exits.
Body armor doesn't make you invincible, depending on the armor and the
caliber of the weapon used you might still have made an impact, since he'd
still be hit by the blunt force of the bullet. In this situation, though,
you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after because he was so
well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a
helmet with a visor). Who knows? Telling a loved one "when I start
shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might have worked.
Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't involved such a
heavily armored assailant. In fact, quite a few of them have taken place in
areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in schools or on university
campuses. Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine.
A student who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the school might have
been able to have had a real impact on that event.
An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion. Apparently, that
opinion is not shared on this list.
Paul
On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or ones with a
hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a person with a
automatic weapon shielded by body armor. How many more victims would be
added to the final body count?
Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
w.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Tom,
While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean come on,
support your community why don't you. :)
Donovan J. Arnold
From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
.
You may very well be right, Sunil.
It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service. Trust those
around you, but keep your powder dry.
I saw the poster at Tri-State. And, as I've said before, this is the
first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow. I checked a few
things out, such as its website, phone number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I needed
something to pass the time while my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
The more I dug, the more red flags I found. The more red flags I found,
the more I dug. I have so many info sources, concerning the NFT Academy,
bookmarked for reference I am thinking of discarding half of 'em.
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed weapon permit; who
knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a big deal.
Sunil
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
.
The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years. The is the FIRST
time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly advertised in town. Couple
that up with the increasing paranoia, as a result of the recent instances in
Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right to be
curious.
BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence since April 2012
and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-tra
ining-academy-website/
I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and its website, but
let's see where this thread leads.
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
Sunil
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
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