[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

Sun Aug 12 15:40:42 PDT 2012

It might also be pointed out that a gun is not necessary to commit mas murder. Tim McVeigh for example.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:14:37 -0700
To: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

> 
> I guess there's no point in looking for other examples. Pre-planned, 
> well-executed mass-murders just aren't common enough to give you those 
> statistics and the percentage of CWP holder is (I'm guessing) relatively 
> small, and most of these killing sprees happen in gun-free zones where 
> law-abiding permit holders wouldn't be armed anyway.  This NY Times 
> article claims that the Aurora theater banned firearms (even to permit 
> holders), which places it in the category of "gun-free zones" too.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-gun-laws-remain-lax-despite-changes-after-columbine.html?_r=1
> 
> If someone had you pinned down in a dark theater and you feared for your 
> life wouldn't you want some way to defend yourself?  I don't get this 
> rabid anti-gun rhetoric.  I notice the ban firearms policy didn't stop 
> James Holmes from going on his killing spree. Metal detectors wouldn't 
> have helped, either, because he left and came back through the exit 
> doors which wouldn't have had them anyway.  Even a complete firearms ban 
> country-wide wouldn't have helped because I doubt he would have had 
> qualms about purchasing guns on the black market.  It might have taken 
> him longer to prepare, is all.
> 
> Short of a 1984-esque society, I don't know how you could stop this kind 
> of thing.  Even if they were successful, this guy could have done what 
> he did with a satchel full of Molotov cocktails. So why not even the 
> odds and allow people the option of personal defense?
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 08/12/2012 07:10 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> > But this is a case in which someone did not use a gun to defend
> > himself against the attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was up there
> > preaching, and I stepped off of there into a chair and on the rail
> > that went around, and I dove right off and grabbed the gun." The
> > Pastor had concealed weapons training but didn't use a gun to prevent
> > further harm.
> >
> > Again, I have nothing against training, nothing against guns frankly
> > (though I think it is too easy to get guns in our country). My main
> > point is that guns usually do more harm than good. It is rare that
> > having a gun will actually help you and the evidence suggests that if
> > you own a gun you are far more likely to be harmed by it -- either by
> > accident or by an assailant taking it from you -- than you are of
> > protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC.  Some links to news stories
> >> about it:
> >>
> >> http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
> >> http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
> >> http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
> >>
> >> tl;dr version:  A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out of
> >> the trunk of his car during church services.  He warns the congregation, and
> >> locks the doors.  The man kicks in a side door and is disarmed and wrestled
> >> to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint by the guy with the
> >> concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive.  The shotgun the man had
> >> brought was loaded, and he claims he was going to kidnap the pastor.
> >>
> >> I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if that guy hadn't
> >> acted quickly, I doubt anyone does.  That's the trouble with this sort of
> >> request as Gary alluded to.  We don't know that this would have been a
> >> tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
> >> On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> >>
> >> Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora type
> >> situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths; can't be
> >> sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know. Paul was talking
> >> about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree killing. Any
> >> examples of someone preventing that from happening with a handgun? Haven't
> >> heard or seen of one yet.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented? How can you
> >> know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting and not quit
> >> till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did you acquire this
> >> awesome ability to determine what might and might not have been?
> >>
> >> g
> >>
> >> From: Joe Campbell
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
> >> To: Gary Crabtree
> >> Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting .  .
> >>
> >> Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case like Aurora is
> >> either true or false. If true, when and where?
> >>
> >> The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
> >> subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing violence by any
> >> means.
> >>
> >> I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
> >> government -- and it's everyone for himself.
> >>
> >> On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of concealed is
> >> keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods creation that you're
> >> healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by some to be sure.
> >>
> >> A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights to good effect:
> >>
> >> http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
> >>
> >> To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
> >> illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened had a different
> >> path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are wounded and taken to
> >> jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding their own business in a internet
> >> café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
> >>
> >> g
> >>
> >> From: Paul Rumelhart
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting .  .
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire.  Firing in the
> >> middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits would surely be
> >> asking for trouble.  However, it's my understanding that for a while during
> >> the shooting the shooter had complete control of the situation.  Anyone
> >> trying to leave was shot.  Many people were playing dead in the hopes they
> >> would  be passed over.  Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body armor,
> >> might distract him enough that some people might have made it to the exits.
> >> Body armor doesn't make you invincible, depending on the armor and the
> >> caliber of the weapon used you might still have made an impact, since he'd
> >> still be hit by the blunt force of the bullet.  In this situation, though,
> >> you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after because he was so
> >> well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a
> >> helmet with a visor).  Who knows?  Telling a loved one "when I start
> >> shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might have worked.
> >>
> >> Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't involved such a
> >> heavily armored assailant.  In fact, quite a few of them have taken place in
> >> areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in schools or on university
> >> campuses.  Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine.
> >> A student who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the school might have
> >> been able to have had a real impact on that event.
> >>
> >> An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion.  Apparently, that
> >> opinion is not shared on this list.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
> >> On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
> >>
> >> It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or ones with a
> >> hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a person with a
> >> automatic weapon shielded by body armor.  How many more victims would be
> >> added to the final body count?
> >>
> >> Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
> >>
> >> w.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
> >> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Tom,
> >>>
> >>> While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean come on,
> >>> support your community why don't you. :)
> >>>
> >>> Donovan J. Arnold
> >>>
> >>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> >>> To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >>> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
> >>>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> You may very well be right, Sunil.
> >>>
> >>> It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service.  Trust those
> >>> around you, but keep your powder dry.
> >>>
> >>> I saw the poster at Tri-State.  And, as I've said before, this is the
> >>> first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow.  I checked a few
> >>> things out, such as its website, phone number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I needed
> >>> something to pass the time while my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
> >>>
> >>> The more I dug, the more red flags I found.  The more red flags I found,
> >>> the more I dug.  I have so many info sources, concerning the NFT Academy,
> >>> bookmarked for reference I am thinking of discarding half of 'em.
> >>>
> >>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>>
> >>> Tom Hansen
> >>> Moscow, Idaho
> >>>
> >>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
> >>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> >>>
> >>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
> >>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed weapon permit; who
> >>> knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a big deal.
> >>>
> >>> Sunil
> >>>
> >>> From: thansen at moscow.com
> >>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
> >>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
> >>>
> >>> I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years.  The is the FIRST
> >>> time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly advertised in town.  Couple
> >>> that up with the increasing paranoia, as a result of the recent instances in
> >>> Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right to be
> >>> curious.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence since April 2012
> >>> and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
> >>>
> >>> I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and its website, but
> >>> let's see where this thread leads.
> >>>
> >>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>>
> >>> Tom Hansen
> >>> Moscow, Idaho
> >>>
> >>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
> >>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> >>>
> >>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
> >>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
> >>>
> >>> Sunil
> >>>
> >>> From: thansen at moscow.com
> >>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
> >>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>>
> >>> Tom Hansen
> >>> Moscow, Idaho
> >>>
> >>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
> >>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> 
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