[Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow

Wed May 11 18:33:30 PDT 2011

Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the 
Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to move 
a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some perspective 
here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible 
electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money 
in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win", 
they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and force 
the extra cost on to the consumers.

I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it in 
perspective.

Paul

On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or Moscow
> yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on somebody else's
> door.
>
> "Lame" doesn't begin to describe that logic.
>
> Seeya at HIRC tonight, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2011 10:47 am, Saundra Lund wrote:
>> In part, Donovan wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember Governor Cecil D. Andrus and how he  blocked the Feds from
>> entering the state with nuclear waste?
>>
>>
>>
>>   "I've got a state policeman and 15 of his friends, and all of them are
>> prepared to do what is necessary if that truck makes it inside the
>> borders of this state."
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/08/us/idaho-governor-blocks-shipments-of-atom-waste-to-us-dump-site.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Too bad we don't have politicians with courage and a working moral compass
>> today that really look out for the people they represent! The rights of
>> local citizens and property owners, and our pristine irreplaceable
>> environment should not be ignored or put at risk of destruction in favor
>> of the most privileged billionaires that offer nothing in return for their
>> trespasses against us.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the fond but all too short stroll down memory lane, Donovan.  I
>> completely agree.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know Idaho isnâ€™t the only state in this position, but our state
>> government is rotten to the core now as a direct result, IMHO, of far too
>> many years of single party (GOP) control.  Look where itâ€™s gotten us,
>> and itâ€™s nowhere good.  Iâ€™m sure there are still some departments that
>> havenâ€™t been destroyed by cronyism&  corruption, but IDT surely isnâ€™t
>> one of them.
>>
>>
>>
>> And, unfortunately, now isnâ€™t the time to reasonably expect and decent
>> GOP legislators to stand up to the state party.  We need look no further
>> than our own Rep. Tom Trail to see the retaliation when elected officials
>> opt to look out for the people they represent rather than following the
>> whacky&  dysfunctional state GOP party line.  Tom has served his
>> constituents well over the years, but all the state party cares about now
>> is forcing its members to be, essentially, jackbooted thugs willing to
>> kowtow to big monied special interests (including those from
>> out-of-state), and those unwilling to sell out are marginalized&  stripped
>> of state positions where they could make a difference.  Disgusting.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Saundra Lund
>>
>> Moscow, ID
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
>> nothing.
>>
>> ~ Edmund Burke
>>
>>
>>
>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life
>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
>> outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of
>> the author.*****
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>> On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:59 AM
>> To: Art Deco; Vision 2020; Craine Kit; Sue Hovey; Tom Hansen
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom Hansen,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the history lesson. But that doesn't change any of the facts on
>> the ground. The meeting is still a farce because it won't be to discuss
>> the concerns of the Idaho and Moscow residents unless they are technical
>> questions about how the transportation will proceed.
>>
>>
>>
>> In all fairness, Council President Krauss was correct that the mega-loads
>> were not Moscow's specific concern because at the time he said it the
>> loads were not scheduled to come through Moscow.
>>
>> The only thing people of Moscow are being offered is lip service and
>> information on how the mega-loads are going to come roaring through
>> downtown in the dead of night. Where is the meeting on how and what is
>> being done to prevent this from happening? Until that happens, people are
>> just being played with by the politicians, lawyers, and the big oil
>> companies that fund them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember Governor Cecil D. Andrus and how he  blocked the Feds from
>> entering the state with nuclear waste?
>>
>>
>>
>>   "I've got a state policeman and 15 of his friends, and all of them are
>> prepared to do what is necessary if that truck makes it inside the
>> borders of this state."
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/08/us/idaho-governor-blocks-shipments-of-atom-waste-to-us-dump-site.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Too bad we don't have politicians with courage and a working moral compass
>> today that really look out for the people they represent! The rights of
>> local citizens and property owners, and our pristine irreplaceable
>> environment should not be ignored or put at risk of destruction in favor
>> of the most privileged billionaires that offer nothing in return for their
>> trespasses against us.
>>
>>
>>
>> Donovan Arnold
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 5/11/11, Tom Hansen<thansen at moscow.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Tom Hansen<thansen at moscow.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>> To: "Donovan Arnold"<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>, "Art Deco"
>> <deco at moscow.com>, "Vision 2020"<vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Craine Kit"
>> <kcraine at frontier.com>, "Sue Hovey"<suehovey at moscow.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, May 11, 2011, 8:27 AM
>>
>> A little history lesson here, Mr. Arnold . . .
>>
>> On June 28, 2010 the Idaho Transportation Department began what was
>> expected to be a series of community discussions in Moscow, Lewiston, and
>> Kamiah.  ITD, Conoco, and ExxonMobil were under the impression that these
>> forums were to be conducted similar to a "high school career day" where
>> representatives from Conoco and ExxonMobil would present a short speech
>> from their respective displays.  Shortly after Rep. Tom Trail arrived at
>> the meeting, was informed of the meeting's format, and had a "discussion"
>> with the ITD rep, the forum was re-formatted to include a Q&A portion.
>>
>> http://www.moscowcares.com/highway12/ITDmtg_062810.htm
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> On August 16, 2010, during the public commentary portion of the Moscow
>> City Council session, it was suggested that Moscow adopt a resolution
>> against the transporting of oversized loads on Highway 12.
>>
>> To which Moscow City Council President Wayne Krauss responded, on
>> September 6th, that the megaloads were none of Moscow's concern.
>>
>> http://www.moscowcares.com/highway12/MoscowCC_PubCom_Hwy12Res.htm
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> On April 4, 2011 the Idaho Transportation Department presented a report to
>> the Moscow City Council outlining US95 and I90 as alternate routes for a
>> portion of the Highway 12 megaloads.  In strong suggestive language (using
>> terms like "right" and "ethics") Mayor Chaney asked that a public forum be
>> conducted in Moscow so that Moscow's citizens may be heard on this issue.
>>
>> http://www.moscowcares.com/040411_05_MegaloadsITD.htm
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> On April 18, 2011, during the Moscow City Council session, Mayor Chaney
>> presented an update concerning the potential for megaloads being
>> transported through Moscow on US95.
>>
>> http://www.moscowcares.com/041811_05_Megaloads.htm
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> So . . . you see, Mr. Arnold.  In my opinion, where the people of Moscow
>> are concerned, Mayor Chaney has their back.
>>
>> Perhaps your anguish would be better aimed at Moscow City Council
>> President Wayne Krauss who publicly expressed that these megaloads are not
>> of Moscow's concern.
>>
>> Footnote, V-peeps:  Although Rep. Tom Trail and Moscow City Council
>> President Wayne Krauss are both members of the Republican Party, there are
>> three words that clearly define the difference between them . . .
>>
>> CONCERN FOR CONSTITUENTS
>>
>> You decide who's got your back next time you step into the voting booth.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 11, 2011 6:40 am, Donovan Arnold wrote:
>>> Sue,
>>> Ã‚
>>> I don't think that Mayor Cheney believes that the other issues are not
>>> of
>>> concern. I just don't think the Mayor can restrict what people can ask,
>>> only what she and her invited speakers are willing to address. I think
>>> having a public forum simply to take only technical questions is rather
>>> pointless unless you are an engineering student. Most people won't have
>>> technical questions about the transport ifÃ‚ explained the process in a
>>> well written article posted on the internet and published in the paper.
>>> I
>>> think the meeting is a farce if the real questions and concernsÃ‚ people
>>> have are not even allowed to be asked.
>>> Ã‚
>>> How about this question? What can the people do to stop these
>>> mega-transports?
>>> Ã‚
>>> Donovan Arnold
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 5/10/11, Sue Hovey<suehovey at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=suehovey@moscow.com>  >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Sue Hovey<suehovey at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=suehovey@moscow.com>  >
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>> To: "Art Deco"<deco at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>  >,
>>> "Vision 2020"<vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>  >,
>>> "Donovan Arnold"<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
>>>> , "Tom Hansen"
>>> <thansen at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>  >,
>>> "Craine Kit"<kcraine at frontier.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kcraine@frontier.com>  >
>>> Date: Tuesday, May 10, 2011, 11:45 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, Donovan&  All,
>>> Ã‚
>>> I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t see that framing the discussion around local issues is a
>>> signal
>>> that the Mayor has declared the rest to be ok.Ã‚  It seems to me the
>>> meeting was set to discuss impacts on our city. Those are the concerns
>>> which will determine whether they get a permit to transport the rigs.Ã‚
>>> Obviously the other risks are not important to the Governor, ITD, and
>>> other folks or this wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have already happened in Idaho.Ã‚ Ã‚
>>> Ã‚  As a
>>> group of citizens concerned with this whole mess--how Exxon Mobile and
>>> other oil extractors are willing to do any damage to any environment,
>>> and
>>> any people simply to turn a profitÃ¢â‚¬â€you point out a legitimate
>>> discussion
>>> topic for Moscow citizens, and I bet the mayor is willing to have that
>>> meeting, too.Ã‚  Why not ask her.Ã‚
>>> Ã‚
>>> Sue H.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ã‚
>>>
>>> From: Art Deco
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:39 PM
>>> To: Vision 2020
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>> Ã‚
>>>
>>> These megaloads are an extremely great deal for us!
>>> Ã‚
>>> We can help kill lots of First Nations Canadians and others, cause the
>>> greatest environmental disaster in the history of North America, and
>>> help
>>> our sneakiest global competitors, the Chinese, who own the majority
>>> interests in the tar sands projects, to prosper even more at our
>>> expense.
>>> Ã‚
>>> Paraphrasing Langston Hughes:Ã‚  Everyone benefits from these megaloads.
>>> Big oil gets to ride, we gets to watch them ride.
>>> Ã‚
>>> w.
>>> Ã‚
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Donovan Arnold
>>> To: Tom Hansen ; Craine Kit
>>> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 11:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>> Ã‚
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My Questions;
>>> Ã‚
>>> How did the Mayor acquire the ability to dictate what questions can an
>>> cannot be asked? I understand informing people they will only answer
>>> questions they feel are related to the transport of the megaloads, but
>>> to
>>> tell people what they can and cannot ask seems more like a scripted
>>> event
>>> than an actual Q&A session.
>>> Ã‚
>>> Why should any people be required to allow these megaloads to be run
>>> through their towns when they are not designed to handle this kind
>>> transport? I don't think it would hurt Exxon Mobile financiallyÃ‚  to
>>> find
>>> another means of transporting their product without disrupting the
>>> quality
>>> of life, safety, and well being of others with lesser means than them.
>>> Ã‚
>>> Donovan Arnold
>>> Ã‚
>>> Ã‚
>>> --- On Tue, 5/10/11, Craine Kit<kcraine at frontier.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kcraine@frontier.com>  >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Craine Kit<kcraine at frontier.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kcraine@frontier.com>  >
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>> To: "Tom Hansen"<thansen at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>  >
>>> Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020"<vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>  >
>>> Date: Tuesday, May 10, 2011, 9:47 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course, one must ask about the impact of the convoy of 30 or soÃ‚
>>> vehicles--which is said to take an hour to pass any particular point.
>>>
>>> Kit Craine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Courtesy of today's (May 10, 2011) Moscow-Pullman Daily News.
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> OUR VIEW: Questions about semimegaloads in Moscow
>>>> Lee Rozen, for the editorial board
>>>> Posted on: Tuesday, May 10, 2011
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the middle of about 60 nights this year, Imperial Oil/ExxonMobilÃ‚
>>>> wants
>>>> to send oil equipment convoys that are a block or so long, two lanesÃ‚
>>>> wide
>>>> and 16 feet tall rumbling and blinking north through downtown Moscow.
>>>>
>>>> The Korean-built equipment would head from Lewiston via U.S. HighwayÃ‚
>>>> 95,
>>>> Interstate 90 and Montana to the Kearl Oil Sands in Alberta. To getÃ‚
>>>> each
>>>> load from Lewiston to the Benewah County line should take one night
>>>> between 10 p.m. and 5:30 a.m. Officials promise traffic delays of noÃ‚
>>>> more
>>>> than 15 minutes.
>>>>
>>>> But the travel plan is under review, and neither Idaho nor Montana has
>>>> issued the necessary permits, or said when they will. The Moscow
>>>> semi-megaload route has been chosen because of the delays in getting
>>>> megaloads up the scenic U.S. Highway 12 corridor.
>>>>
>>>> ExxonMobil and Idaho Transportation Department officials haveÃ‚
>>>> deigned to
>>>> listen to Moscow's concerns about that at 7 p.m. Wednesday at theÃ‚
>>>> Hamilton
>>>> Indoor Recreation Center, 1724 E. F St.
>>>>
>>>> At that meeting. ITD and oil company officials will talk first, andÃ‚
>>>> then
>>>> take questions and comments from those who have signed in. Also, youÃ‚
>>>> can
>>>> email your thoughts to the ITD at comments at itd.idaho.gov
>>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=comments@itd.idaho.gov>  ,
>>>> and the City
>>>> Council at skalasz at ci.moscow.id.us
>>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Mayor Nancy Chaney apparently has declared the morality of ExxonMobil
>>>> profits, the Kearl Oil Sands project and fossil fuel consumption
>>>> off-limits for discussion Wednesday night.
>>>>
>>>> ExxonMobil made profits of $10.7 billion in first quarter 2011. SomeÃ‚
>>>> say
>>>> the Kearl Oil Sands project is destroying the Canadian environment and
>>>> killing residents of the area.
>>>>
>>>> Still, that leaves plenty of questions that need answers:
>>>>
>>>> Who makes sure delays are only 15 minutes? What happens if theyÃ‚
>>>> aren't?
>>>>
>>>> Will all cross-streets in Moscow be closed?
>>>>
>>>> Is it a delay if traffic keeps moving at 15 miles an hour behind the
>>>> convoy? (The ITD says it isn't a delay; federal rules say it is.)
>>>>
>>>> Who pays for moving power lines and stoplights out of the way?
>>>>
>>>> Will this semi-megaload convoy be likely to wake me up when it goesÃ‚
>>>> by my
>>>> house or apartment?
>>>>
>>>> Will you notify shippers - and the media so they can alert theÃ‚
>>>> public - in
>>>> advance of a convoy?
>>>>
>>>> Once permits are issued, can their terms be changed without notice?
>>>>
>>>> What if state police escorts get called to an emergency? Will thatÃ‚
>>>> stall
>>>> the convoy?
>>>>
>>>> What if Montana won't let the semi-megaloads in?
>>>>
>>>> Let's hope we hear some good answers.
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Seeya there, Moscow.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "This is the 'Mouse that Roared,' 'David and Goliath' and 'Avatar' all
>>>> rolled into one.Ã‚  We must remember that the thousands of citizensÃ‚
>>>> involved
>>>> in this effort to protect their personal and family safety, their
>>>> businesses and their lifestyles are confronting some of the largest
>>>> international corporations in the world."
>>>>
>>>> - Linwood Laughy
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
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>>>> <http://www.fsr.net/>
>>>> Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚  mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
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>>> Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚>   Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚
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>>> =======================================================
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>>> Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚>   Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚
>>> Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚
>>> Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚  mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>> =======================================================
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>>> Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚>   Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚
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>>
>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>
>> - Unknown
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
>
>   - Unknown
>
>
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>   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>