[Vision2020] Pollyanna Wants to Know: Who's the Lying Sack of Sh*t?

Sun Jul 17 18:37:11 PDT 2011

Jay,

I only agree with megaloads if it is necessary and proper and reasonable. And the decision to do so involves the community and those that profit pay the costs of the shipping.

I don't think these megaloads meet that criteria. It is unnecessary because they can be built here in the US at still a large profit. They could be made smaller. The communities should have a voice, or at least be compensated for the transgressions. 

Instead, the people that padded the Legislator's pockets get to ship large loads at taxpayer expense and risk and make a huge profit and with no input from the local people affected by it. That just doesn't sit well with me. 

Donovan Arnold

--- On Sun, 7/17/11, Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com> wrote:

From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Pollyanna Wants to Know: Who's the Lying Sack of Sh*t?
To: "Rosemary Huskey" <donaldrose at cpcinternet.com>, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, July 17, 2011, 5:36 PM

Well, take any “social” bell curve… the further away you travel from “statistically normal” viewpoints, the more unusual the fringes look from the middle… travel out far enough and eventually you’ll get to a point where only the insane can understand each other.   (Take it to the absolute extreme, and I suppose David Koresh and Applegate could argue that the rest of the world lacked “insight” ).  

I’m not wrapped up in emotion on this… I don’t LIKE or DISLIKE the megaloads.  I think it’s an amazing challenge to move an entire REFINERY across a land mass, and I am intrigued by the engineering hurdles and challenges presented… pretty damned cool.    But I’m not so emotionally tied to the issue that I automatically assume anyone involved on the opposing side is “a liar/cheat/sell-out”, nor do I equate their existence or migration to be in the same universe as the travesty endured by Native Americans.  

It’s all a matter of perspective.   From where I stand, I don’t see a problem.  From where you stand, you don’t see a solution.   Kinda hard to bridge that gap.  

At least answer this:  Is it that you believe that the megaloads shouldn’t be travelling through MOSCOW?  (Ok, that’s a pretty narrow topic that we can banter around on… )

Or is it that you believe that all the megaloads shouldn’t EXIST PERIOD? (In which case the exchange of emails and ideas will be pointless, as it’s only a matter of time before we find ourselves in a series of circular arguments that include union tax laws in the same breath as saving the spotted owl.  

Jay

From: Rosemary Huskey [mailto:donaldrose at cpcinternet.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 3:00 PM
To: Jay Borden; 'Donovan Arnold'; 'Saundra Lund'; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Pollyanna Wants to Know: Who's the Lying Sack of Sh*t?

Donovan is dead right in his remarks which are measured, logical, and well argued.  You, Jay Borden, while lacking insight in the megaload issue, undoubtedly demonstrate great wisdom in being self-employed.
Rose Huskey

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Jay Borden
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:18 PM
To: Donovan Arnold; Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Pollyanna Wants to Know: Who's the Lying Sack of Sh*t?

“So if the cook drops your steak on the floor and you didn't notice, did that make it any safer to eat?”

So you are saying that this first megaload wrecked a bunch of stuff along the way, hoped no one would notice, and lied about it after the fact? (Or hoped no one would notice?)

"If I say that I’m going to arrive at a friend’s house at 6:00pm… but then don’t make it there until 6:30pm… does that make me a liar?"

Try that at your place of work and say you are on time and see if that works. 

I am self-employed.  My schedule is constantly adjusting and changing.  While I talk do TALK to myself often, I generally don’t get mad at myself for making changes in my schedule along the way to accommodate shifting needs and priorities.    In addition, if a meeting that I have scheduled is late or is cancelled, I don’t immediately assume some sort of epic cover-up.  Life happens.  

" The fact is, we are a nation/community of LAWS and AGREEMENTS…"

So when did the community of Moscow get to agree to this? Was it kind of like the agreement with the Indians, we take this of yours, and you  must agree to it?

I would say that we probably didn’t get a voice… but since 95 is a state highway, did Moscow actually PAY for the road?  (I would have to go look it up, I don’t know how that cash flow works).  (But, as an aside… you’re seriously comparing large trucks moving along a state road to the transgressions against Native American Culture?... WOW!)

"You’re angry about the megaloads in general, and no matter what scenario emerges it will always land on the side that 'the megaload project can do nothing right.' "

Why shouldn't Saundra and others be angry at the megaloads? Everything about them should infuriate the common US Citizen.

“Everything about them…”  Ok.  I get it.  You’re pissed off, and even if scientists find that  tailpipes emit pure oxygen, you’re going to be angry.  

For starters, the megaloads were manufactured overseas. Why the hell should Americans accommodate any company that ships good jobs overseas? Especially now while tens of millions of people are out of work and have the skills to do that job?

Our economy is global.  America tried the “protectionism” route in the 30’s with Roosevelt… didn’t work out so well.  

Second, why should the oil companies get a "Special Pass" for their big loads to be run, not once or twice, but hundreds of times over roads that were not designed to handle that kind of stress and tear? There is a reason why there is an 80,000 lb gross weight on the roads, it is because that is what the roads can safely handle. Special permits are only allowed usually for the need to transport what cannot be broken down reasonably any further. That is not the case in this situation, it is a case of oil companies trying to save money by moving the jobs overseas and building them as big as they can with cheap labor. Those roads being tore up to pieces are going to be paid for by you and the taxpayers, not ExxonMobile. 

Big difference between an 80,000 pound load divided by 18 wheels vs. 140+ wheels.   But… wait… in the previous paragraph you’re angry because they were “manufactured overseas”… but now in this paragraph you’re angry because they used local labor to assemble/disassemble them…   and you’re just upset that the oil company is trying to save money?  (So I can mentally categorize you, which camp do you come from?  The one where “big oil is screwing us because they’re charging us $4 a gallon for fuel?  Or the camp that wants “gas to be $10 a gallon so everyone rides bicycles?”)  

Did you know that a truck driver who is just 100lbs over the 80000 limit is not only charged a huge fine, but they are not allowed to move their trucks out of the weight port, they have to call another truck to come over and remove the excess. Port authorities are absolute assholes when it comes to weight restrictions, don't believe me, ask any other person that has driven a truck professionally across state lines. BUT, if you are hauling for ExxonMobile, you are allowed to ignore those limits and grind the roads into a fine powdery dust for the taxpayer to pick up the tab not to mention any other damage done to their motor vehicle driving on the same road. 

Did this truck driver in your example file for a permit?  Did he run through the same legal chute, and subject himself to the same process?

Finally, there is the immeasurable loss of the environment if any of those vehicles tip or slide off the road. At the rate America and the western world is destroying natural habit it is irresponsible for people to be putting at risk this great beautiful land that God has made for us to protect and enjoy not exploit. 

Got it…  since this is  “immeasureable”, logic, rational, and solid reasoning won’t work with you.  Understood.  Thanks for clarifying.

Jay Borden

--- On Sat, 7/16/11, Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com> wrote:

From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Pollyanna Wants to Know: Who's the Lying Sack of Sh*t?
To: "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Saturday, July 16, 2011, 1:56 PM

Seems to me you’re just getting angry for the sake of getting angry and lashing out no matter what.  You’re angry about the megaloads in general, and no matter what scenario emerges it will always land on the side that “the megaload project can do nothing right”.

The article says that the 14-food wide load could have been transported during the daytime… and that “Rolheiser wants to maintain the same protocol for both roads”.

They left port of Lewiston a little earlier… and crossed Moscow at 10pm last night.  (News to me, I had no idea…).  So, you’re angry that they deviated from their initial plan/intention, while still staying inside the boundaries of the law/permit that was issued?   There is no way for you not to be angry with this.  If the megaload would have departed EXACTLY at 10PM and arrived in Moscow within the time line and interrupted some event (road construction, some event letting out at a particular time, who knows), you would have been incensed that the folks didn’t have the common sense to call ahead and adjust their schedule accordingly.    (These are outrageous example, I know… I’m trying to illustrate a point).

I don’t get the impression they’ve lied.  They probably did WANT to stick with the same protocol… from an operations standpoint, it would make sense:  every operation that is done differently or has a custom component requires meetings, training, and change… and allows for more stuff to go wrong.    In this case, I would bet their intent was to stick to the plan.  But they adjusted for SOMETHING, stayed within the limits of the permit/law, and got the job done.  (I had zero idea that the megaload came through town last night… so kudos to them for getting it done without my knowing.  I thought that was the intent).

If I say that I’m going to arrive at a friend’s house at 6:00pm… but then don’t make it there until 6:30pm… does that make me a liar?  Or is my reason of “I couldn’t find my car keys” acceptable?

I’m not sure where to respond with the “they didn’t stop where they were supposed to, they didn’t get a motel room, and they didn’t buy local fuel”… plans change… but people are PEOPLE…. they all gotta EAT, and they all gotta SLEEP.  If you’re angry that they didn’t do any of those things WHERE they originally planned, I don’t have much for you… and I applaud your own itineraries and schedules to be so perfectly executed.

You’re upset about the MPD not knowing anything about the transport?  What you quoted talks about ISP involvement (non-mandatory according to the permit), not MPD… If MPD WAS involved with this project, and someone’s house was robbed during this process, (leaving MPD unable to respond more quickly), you would have been angry that the megaloads project has dragged our local police force into the mix.

As far as their level of courteousness?  I guess I can’t comment on that… I’ve never had an issue with MPD or really any law enforcement officer… I’ve learned that people are as generally as courteous to me as I am to them.  Paint a sour face or come out swinging (so to speak), and you’re probably likely to get a cold shoulder or just ignored.    (And if you came out last night to just let your seething anger swell up by witnessing the physical manifestation of your disdain rolling through Moscow, I wouldn’t blame the MPD for turning their backs on dealing with a citizen who might just be interested in picking an argument in which they have no authority or knowledge).

The fact is, we are a nation/community of LAWS and AGREEMENTS… the megaload projects are working within the LAWS and PERMITS that they have LEGALLY obtained.   Changing their operations to accommodate (whatever) changing conditions happened doesn’t make them liars… it makes them flexible.

Jay Borden

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:59 PM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Pollyanna Wants to Know: Who's the Lying Sack of Sh*t?

First oversized load coming through tonight
No date set for larger load; Mammoet given five days to start
By Brandon Macz Daily News Staff Writer
Posted on: Friday, July 15, 2011

Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil will ship the smaller of two oversized loads through Moscow tonight under permits reissued by the Idaho Transportation Department.
ITD reissued permits to transport two oversized loads of oil refinery equipment along U.S. Highway 95 and Interstate 90 on Wednesday with a five-day window that starts today.
"Our plan is to begin moving the first of the two initial modules on Friday night," Pius Rolheiser, Imperial Oil spokesman, said. "The second one, the timing has yet to be determined."
The Idaho State Police weighed both loads Thursday, and the smaller shipment is slated to leave the Port of Lewiston at 10 p.m. today with two ISP escorts, two pilot cars and three flagging crews. Its first scheduled stop will be at the Latah/Benewah county line followed by a stop three miles east of Coeur d'Alene before connecting to I-90.
Capt. Lonnie Richardson of ISP Region 2 in Lewiston said his department will be briefed at 8 p.m. today prior to escorting the shipment, which is not required under the permit. 
Because the shipment is 14 feet wide, it could also be transported in the daytime, but Rolheiser said the company wants to maintain the same protocol for both loads, which means it would use ISP escorts and travel between 10 p.m. and 5:30 a.m

OK, so I know caring about the megaloads moving through Moscow makes me a commie subversivo or something stupid like that to some, but . . . 

What does that make the people who think we can “trust” ITD, Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil, or even the ISP to be honest?  Idiots?  Morons?  Sell-outs?  Corporate shills lacking even a modicum of ethics?

For those who don’t know, the baby mega-load apparently rolled through Moscow at approx. 10 PM last night.

Which means Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil lied when it said, “the company wants to maintain the same protocol for both loads.”  It kept the ISP “escorts” but ditched the time limitations.

News Flash:  if they are willing to lie about the little stuff, they’ll have not a concern in the world in lying about the Big Stuff.  Maybe I’m the only one, but I was genuinely shocked by the dishonesty surrounding the baby megaload’s transit through Moscow.

It also means that the ISP -- perhaps taking a page from the “orderly & law-abiding protestors are scary” book used by Moscow’s own Parks & Rec “Director” Dwight Curtis took – apparently wasn’t quite accurate in announcing that the ISP briefing was at 8 PM last night before the scheduled 10 PM departure with ISP escorts.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that there’s no way in heck that time line was truthful when the load hit Moscow at 10 PM.

Reportedly, the baby megaload didn’t even pause at its “scheduled” stop at the county line in spite of the welcome mat Walter Steed & his toadies positively wet themselves (and likely violated Idaho Public Meeting Law in the process) rolling out.

Of course, Steed’s whole feel good faux resolution was nothing more than insulting to begin with.  Only the uninformed – which definitely shouldn’t have been voting Council members – were unaware of the fact that the megaloads don’t purchase fuel locally.  Duh.

And as for utilizing Moscow motels?

Perhaps in Walter’s World, “knocking off for the day” after two hours’ work makes sense to patronize Moscow motels, but that’s not the real world, as the baby mega-load’s transport last night proved.

Let me rephrase that.  There is a profession – perhaps the world’s oldest -- that utilizes motel rooms for a couple of hours’ work.  Given Steed’s faux resolution, one can’t help but wonder about the source of his . . . confusion.

I went out (and dragged my dh – who deserves a gold star – along with me) last night because I was curious to see things for myself to form my own opinion based of what I saw with my own eyes.  I knew it was just a baby mega-load, but since they are keeping the transit of the real mega-load Top Secret, it was the best I could do.

I’m left wondering why, if the whole thing is as innocuous as the now proven liars want us to believe, they are being so secretive???

I’m also extremely concerned about the apparent lack of communication with local law enforcement (MPD).  I tried to chat with two of Moscow’s “finest” I saw out & about strolling around downtown last night, and they said they didn’t know anything.  Really?  If that’s the case, we all should be very concerned.  

Frankly, I was quite taken aback by their behavior.  I am a law abiding & tax paying citizen who has always previously felt comfortable chatting with truly Moscow’s finest for the 2+ decades I’ve lived here.

The two last night?  Not so much.  In fact, they were positively rude . . . I was literally talking to their backs before my less-than-10-second question was even out of my mouth.   And, no – they weren’t in a hurry to respond to a call because I watched them leisurely lumber down the block without  a care in the world.  I’m sorry to say I now have a better understanding of the comments I’ve been hearing in recent years that MPD seems to have developed an unfriendly attitude towards normal people.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
~ Edmund Burke

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