[Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the Tucson Tragedy)
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Thu Jan 13 18:35:35 PST 2011
I'll get back later. I'm going to spend the next few days dealing with these issues item by item in the order you discussed them. Though I might begin with the Palin lie first, which seems to have dropped out of the conversation.
Again, everyone of your posts is rude and insulting but I call you "jackass" and you cry. Funny!
On Jan 13, 2011, at 6:00 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> "I'll just add that the freedom with which you allow Republicans -- violent rhetoric is natural in political discourse (when it comes from NSA, Palin) combined with their uber sensitivity -- criticisms of Palin are out of bounds -- is pretty laughable."
>
> I don't believe that anyone said criticism of Ms. Palin was out of bounds. I simply feel free to speak up when I hear mischaracterizations and outright poppycock.
>
> "And it's hard to know what to do here. I could follow your posts with mere denials, misconstruals, and demands of proofs already given (and ignored), too. Well I could if I lacked standards of conduct for discourse!"
>
> Looking back along the length of this thread I see not a single quote, citation, or link. I guess it must be time for you to fall back on the most tried and true weapon in your debate arsenal, refer to me as a jackass and flounce off in a huff. I never get tired of that one!
>
> "Pick just one claim out of the handful and lets stick with it if you think/claim I'm wrong. Just one."
>
> I responded to the post in question line by line. The ball is in your court, Sluggo.
>
> g
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 5:30 PM
> To: the lockshop
> Cc: Gary Crabtree ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the Tucson Tragedy)
>
> I'll just add that the freedom with which you allow Republicans -- violent rhetoric is natural in political discourse (when it comes from NSA, Palin) combined with their uber sensitivity -- criticisms of Palin are out of bounds -- is pretty laughable.
>
> And it's hard to know what to do here. I could follow your posts with mere denials, misconstruals, and demands of proofs already given (and ignored), too. Well I could if I lacked standards of conduct for discourse!
>
> Pick just one claim out of the handful and lets stick with it if you think/claim I'm wrong. Just one.
>
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2011, at 3:44 PM, "the lockshop" <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com> wrote:
>
>> "Beck refers to all liberals as communists.'
>>
>> That is simply not true. At the Media Matters site where they attempt to promote that notion, the clip they us to try and back up the absurd claim contains no such remark. Prove me wrong with a cite.
>>
>> "Roger makes connections between liberals and communists regularly."
>>
>> These connections exist as you yourself recently admitted.
>>
>> "Young had several similar posts on his Facebook page when he ran for state senate."
>>
>> Young did not claim that all liberals are nazis or anything else. (unless it's misguided in which case I tend to agree) Once again you are making things up.
>>
>> "And you criticize all my posts. You make it seem like there is something special here but your claims are always the same."
>>
>> Actaully I am critical of some of your posts. Life is just to short to engage you every time you make a remark with which I find foolish. This is connected to someone calling all liberals nazis in what way?
>>
>> "Do liberals contribute to the negative climate? Of course."
>>
>> Glad to hear you finally agree. Progress is being made.
>>
>> "A poster picking out a target who was actually shot is something different."
>>
>> If you have no proof of any sort that the shooter layed eyes on it, and it's a commonly accepted practice on both sides of the political divide, what other than happenstance makes it so different?
>>
>> g
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Joe Campbell
>> To: the lockshop
>> Cc: Gary Crabtree ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 12:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the Tucson Tragedy)
>>
>> Beck refers to all liberals as communists.
>>
>> Roger makes connections between liberals and communists regularly.
>>
>> Young had several similar posts on his Facebook page when he ran for state senate.
>>
>> And you criticize all my posts. You make it seem like there is something special here but your claims are always the same.
>>
>> Do liberals contribute to the negative climate? Of course. It is silly to think that just because I don't say it I don't think it.
>>
>> A poster picking out a target who was actually shot is something different.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 11:56 AM, "the lockshop" <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As non sequiturs go, a little more out of left field then usual but what the heck, I'll play along. Who on the right regularly refers to ALL liberals as nazis and what does it have to do with using unfortunate current events to tar those with whom you disagree?
>>>
>>> g
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Joe Campbell
>>> To: Gary Crabtree
>>> Cc: the lockshop ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 9:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the Tucson Tragedy)
>>>
>>> There just are no examples of candidates or media figures who regularly refer to ALL conservatives as Nazis. There are plenty of analogous examples from the right.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 6:04 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would have a sliver of respect for your point if you included so much as a
>>>> single example of rhetoric that was not from the the right. To endlessly
>>>> drone that "it's just as extreme to say that the volatile political
>>>> rhetoric of the radical right and the climate it created, and the Palin poster
>>>> in particular, had nothing to do with the shooting." and never once include
>>>> one of the multitude of examples that are just as prevalent on the left.
>>>> You are clearly trying to paint the maniac as, at least partially, a product
>>>> of the right and I'm having none of it so stop. Really, just stop.
>>>>
>>>> g
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:56 PM
>>>> To: "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>>> Cc: "the lockshop" <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the Tucson Tragedy)
>>>>
>>>> > What exactly is the moon beam claim? That a "nothing" claim is
>>>> > extreme? And please stop with the "wishful thinking" claim, which is
>>>> > just repeating the insulting comment that Tom posted from Rush, that
>>>> > Democrats wanted this to happen. Have you no decency? Really just
>>>> > stop.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'll repeat what I said, again, so it doesn't get lost in your
>>>> > continued attempts to distort my words: It is extreme to say Palin did
>>>> > it and just as extreme to say that the climate created by the rhetoric
>>>> > of the radical right had nothing to do with the shooting. The truth
>>>> > lies somewhere in between. Where? I don't know. I don't need evidence
>>>> > that he saw the map to support this claim, just to support the extreme
>>>> > position you keep trying to put in my mouth (which I do not hold).
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>>> >> " I think it is just as extreme to say that the volatile political rhetoric
>>>> >> of the
>>>> >> radical right and the climate it created, and the Palin poster in
>>>> >> particular,
>>>> >> had nothing to do with the shooting. "
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I might be willing to accept this if there was even a shred of evidence
>>>> >> that the psychopath had seen the map or paid any attention to right
>>>> >> wing commentary. So far, the indications are that he didn't and your
>>>> >> claims appear to be made up of moon beams, fairy dust, and a heaping
>>>> >> shovel full of wishful thinking
>>>> >>
>>>> >> g
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> From: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:28 PM
>>>> >> To: "the lockshop" <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com>
>>>> >> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the
>>>> >> Tucson Tragedy)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> What is the uber left? What policies do they hold? What are they
>>>> >>> saying about Palin that is so egregious? Be specific. Use quotes.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I know that I've made some claims about Palin and the shooter, but
>>>> >>> most of my claims were distorted by you and by Roger. I never blamed
>>>> >>> Palin, for instance. I certainly never claimed that she was
>>>> >>> responsible in any way. It would be an extreme claim to say that she
>>>> >>> was an accessory, which I don't believe and never said. But I think it
>>>> >>> is just as extreme to say that the volatile political rhetoric of the
>>>> >>> radical right and the climate it created, and the Palin poster in
>>>> >>> particular, had nothing to do with the shooting. In between the
>>>> >>> extreme all and nothing claims are a variety of more plausible views
>>>> >>> and I haven't said which of those I accept because I really don't know
>>>> >>> what to say about it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> You say "Stop trying to tarnish your ideological 'enemies' with
>>>> >>> reasons for a event that just are not there." But this is such a joke
>>>> >>> it is not funny. I'm merely asking that Palin and others stop using a
>>>> >>> "bullseye" to target their political enemies, that the right stop
>>>> >>> referring to everyone on the left as a communist, that they stop the
>>>> >>> distortion and the over-the-top rhetoric. That we realize, as one V
>>>> >>> post put it, we are hovering around the same spot on the political
>>>> >>> compass. Again, there is nothing radical about any of this and it is
>>>> >>> precisely the very same request that you're making. So I find that
>>>> >>> ironic!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Add to this that if I had political motives, what I'd do is keep my
>>>> >>> mouth shut wrt criticisms of Palin. What I'd try to do is get her to
>>>> >>> win the Republican nomination since she is one of handful of people
>>>> >>> that Obama has a chance of beating. She is simply not electable. I
>>>> >>> hope she does win the Republican nomination for that very reason (but
>>>> >>> she won't). So if I were playing political gamesmanship I'd keep quiet
>>>> >>> about her. I wouldn't criticize her. It makes no sense to criticize
>>>> >>> her if you're a Democrat and your only concern is to get Democrats
>>>> >>> elected. She is the best thing for the party in years. But I'm out of
>>>> >>> politics and have more broad social concerns, like the well being of
>>>> >>> our country. I'm using this as an opportunity to try to get the
>>>> >>> over-the-top rhetoric to stop.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Lastly, wrt to your claims about "surveyor symbols" that is just plain
>>>> >>> stupid. I'm not saying you are stupid since I don't think for a minute
>>>> >>> that you believe that story. So the fact that I don't believe it can't
>>>> >>> be a slight against me. No one believes that story, and we're not all
>>>> >>> members of the uber left. Even the folks telling that story don't
>>>> >>> believe it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Here's a nice article on the issue.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2011/01/gunsights_or_surveyor_symbols.html
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> At the end of this article there is a comment from Palin herself,
>>>> >>> tweeted after the election: "Remember months ago 'bullseye' icon used
>>>> >>> 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin' incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20
>>>> >>> (90% success rate;T'aint bad)."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Nothing about surveying here from the horses mouth. Try explaining
>>>> >>> this! Or better yet, try dropping this stupid fairytale altogether. NO
>>>> >>> one is buying it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 5:25 PM, the lockshop <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> The symbol means here, this place, this location on the map. In other
>>>> >>>> words
>>>> >>>> this is a district where we would like a Republican to be in office. Sort
>>>> >>>> of
>>>> >>>> like X marks the spot. Why the uber left keeps trying to make this
>>>> >>>> tragedy
>>>> >>>> about Sarah and the right is really an unsavory mystery. The shooter was
>>>> >>>> crazy. Stop trying to tarnish your ideological "enemies" with reasons for
>>>> >>>> a
>>>> >>>> event that just are not there.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> g
>>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Campbell"
>>>> >>>> <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> To: <nickgier at roadrunner.com>
>>>> >>>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 4:46 PM
>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Resolution for the 112th Congress (after the
>>>> >>>> Tucson Tragedy)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Another question: What possible meaning or significance could surveyor
>>>> >>>> symbols have? Why that symbol?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:26 PM, <nickgier at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> A note to Roger and Gary:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> When Democrats start calling for "Second Amendment" solutions, then I
>>>> >>>>> will
>>>> >>>>> consider your losing battle to make Democrats more violent.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If Palin meant those to be surveyor symbols, why did she accompany the
>>>> >>>>> map
>>>> >>>>> with the tweet "Don't Retreat, Reload"? Could it be that the webmaster
>>>> >>>>> couldn't find the cross-hairs symbol that he really intended and needed?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Nick
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> A RESOLUTION FOR THE 112TH CONGRESS
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, the Pima County Sheriff rightly said that violent rhetoric has
>>>> >>>>> consequences;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, abortion clinic doctors were marked with cross-hairs and “four
>>>> >>>>> doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort
>>>> >>>>> were
>>>> >>>>> killed”;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, GOP Senate candidate Sharon Angle and Tea Party leaders
>>>> >>>>> declared
>>>> >>>>> that a “Second Amendment” solution may be necessary for the Obama
>>>> >>>>> administration;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, in November of 2009 a person brought a handgun to one of now
>>>> >>>>> critically wounded Rep. Gabriel Giffords’ community gatherings;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, GOP Vice-Presidential candidate Sarah Palin targeted 22
>>>> >>>>> Democratic seats with a symbol that Giffords, a gun owner, took as
>>>> >>>>> cross-hairs (the map was followed by a tweet that said “Don’t Retreat,
>>>> >>>>> Reload”);
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, Gifford’s opponent Jesse Kelley asked supporters to "shoot a
>>>> >>>>> fully automatic M16" to "get on target" and help "remove Gabrielle
>>>> >>>>> Giffords";
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, on Fox Business News Sarah Palin offered praise for Kelly: "I
>>>> >>>>> don't feel worthy to lace his combat boots";
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, on January 12, 2011 four GOP leaders in Arizona, criticized as
>>>> >>>>> McCain supporters, resigned after violent threats from Tea Party
>>>> >>>>> activists;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, Giffords’ office was vandalized right after she voted for the
>>>> >>>>> Affordable Health Care Act;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, the U.S. lags other industrialized countries in mental health
>>>> >>>>> services, and Arizona ranks second to last in the U.S.;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, repeal of the Affordable Health Care Act has no chance of
>>>> >>>>> passing
>>>> >>>>> Congress;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Whereas, Americans, sometime by polls of 2-1, support major aspects of
>>>> >>>>> the
>>>> >>>>> Affordable Health Care Act;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Therefore Be it Resolved that the repeal of the Affordable Health Care
>>>> >>>>> Act
>>>> >>>>> be withdrawn;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Be It Further Resolved that more funds be provided for mental health
>>>> >>>>> treatment;
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And May It Further Resolved that all Americans stop demonizing their
>>>> >>>>> political and religious opponents and refrain from using violent
>>>> >>>>> rhetoric
>>>> >>>>> about them.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And Finally May It Be Resolved that on the eve of the MLK Holiday all
>>>> >>>>> Americans attempt to embrace the ethics of non-violence that Martin
>>>> >>>>> Luther
>>>> >>>>> King drew from Mahatma Gandhi and his own Christian faith.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> =======================================================
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>>>> >>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> >>>>> =======================================================
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>>>> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
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>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
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>>>> >>>>
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