[Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor Campbell)
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Mon Feb 28 07:39:37 PST 2011
There is no strawman fallacy! In fact, you are guilty of the fallacy of
calling "fallacy" whenever someone criticizes your argument! It is not
surprising that you have a dislike of professors given that you don't know
what the heck you are talking about. I can imagine how real logic teachers
might get in the way of your agenda; better to replace them with unqualified
dupes.
Who are the folks who are going to be teaching these classes for next to
nothing? Again, I can teach a logic class with 250 students. If we limit
class size to 25, that still requires 10 folks to teach the same number of
students. What will you pay them? Less than 1/10 of my salary? And you're
going to get 10 of them to teach at that pay scale, none of whom can teach
the upper division classes that I teach!?! And this will improve education
exactly how? By having unqualified people who are willing to work for next
to nothing just so you can reduce class sizes to the levels of 10 years ago,
when folks were willing to pay for education!
This is not a plan. It is just hysterical rhetoric intended to influence
folks who are going through the worst financial crisis since the 30s by
giving them a scapegoat to blame. You keep saying how "overpaid" folks are
yet you CANNOT name one individual who is overpaid.
Also, you keep ignoring refutations of your comments, like Betsy's point
that salaries at UI are NOT rising every year; that few have had pay
increases in the last 5 years. Yet you want to cut their pay even more, more
than it has been cut given inflation. Shame on you!
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 6:18 AM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I am afraid you like to still create strawmen and attack them in place of
> my arguments. I believe it is money better spent to have smaller classrooms
> than to pay people making a huge amount of money more money if the goal is
> to produce better educated students.
>
>
> I understand your point about inflation, however the cost of education and
> professor salaries have increased well beyond the rate of inflation. In
> fact, many things are cheaper now than they were two to five years ago.
>
> I think many of the so called "smart people" with the inflated salaries and
> benefits are more of the problem than the solution. Just because people are
> smart doesn't mean they are the solution, many times smart people are also
> dishonest or greedy, or unmotivated to help others over themselves. It takes
> unselfish and highly motivated people to solve complex problems, not just
> smart ones. Most of the smart overpaid people at UI don't stick around long
> enough to see anything through or have the influence and position to make
> any real needed changes.. During my four years at UI I saw three Presidents
> and countless financial people come and go.
>
> I disagree that WSU professors are underpaid compared to their
> counterparts. The cost of living around the Palouse is far less than other
> places and the quality of life is far more enriching.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/27/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 3:30 PM
>
>
> Everyone gets paid more and more each year. It is called "inflation." We
> pay more and more for hamburgers each year and this is justified because its
> produced better hamburger-eaters!?! Again, you have these thoughts about
> education that don't project well if you take them to any other arena.
>
> You write: "Education improves because classrooms are smaller, teachers
> have resources to do their jobs, the teachers are dedicated to the progress
> of the students, and the concerns and issues facing teachers are addressed."
>
> Wait a minute. Is your "solution" to lower classroom size? Is the idea that
> if we cut salaries 5% and pay no one more than 70,000 that we be able to
> re-coup enough savings so that we get down to a classroom size where it will
> matter, say, 20 students?
>
> For one thing, class room sizes is not getting smaller, it is getting
> larger. And cutting salaries isn't going to help you. Sure you can get a
> bunch of people to teach classes to 20 students but it would be a whole lot
> more efficient to just get one gal to teach 250 students; get a few TAs to
> do the grading. Do the math: your solution is NOT going to save money in the
> long run. If it were that easy, someone would have already thought to that
> "solution."
>
> You need to have a little more faith and trust that the folks in higher ed
> are in it for the right reasons and that nonetheless it is a competitive
> market. People are payed what they are paid because that is the going rate.
> Folks on the Palouse are already underpaid relative to their colleagues at
> peer institutions. And believe it or not the administrations of both
> universities are filled with intelligent people, folks who are also
> interested in education in the same way that the K-12 teachers you love so
> dearly are interested in education, people who are busting their humps
> trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.
>
> Best, Joe
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> We do pay professors more and more each year yet it hasn't provided smarter
> students.
>
> There is no strong correlation, as you claim, nor have you produced any
> evidence or study that shows that paying educators more money results in
> higher educated students. Idaho ranks on the bottom for K-12 funding of
> teacher salaries, yet it ranks closer to the top in state rankings.
>
> Education improves because classrooms are smaller, teachers have resources
> to do their jobs, the teachers are dedicated to the progress of the
> students, and the concerns and issues facing teachers are addressed. Adding
> more zeros on the end of their check doesn't make a teacher any better. How
> many zeros we add is based on what the community can afford, not what they
> are worth, as no community could afford the true value of one single
> elementary teacher.
>
> I don't know what rock you have been hiding under, however, there is no
> shortage of studies indicating that the US is slipping in education rankings
> and test scores. Here are few of them;
>
>
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html
>
>
>
> http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/education-rankings-by-country/
>
>
>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
>
>
>
>
> http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_oecd.html
>
>
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml
>
> "Third, name one other business that adopts your 'methodology'."
>
> That is part of the issue with many in your generation's thinking,
> everything is about business and making dollars, not the intrinsic value of
> an education or producing happy healthy independent productive people. But I
> don't know any business that pays more for poorer performance. Do you?
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/27/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 7:20 AM
>
>
> First, we haven't tried paying people more yet.
>
> Second, your assumption that the quality of education is bad is
> unsupported; just as is your claim that some professors are overpaid. These
> aren't arguments as much as unsupported opinions.
>
> Third, name one other business that adopts your "methodology."
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2011, at 6:10 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Paying professors more certainly hasn't helped the quality of education,
> has it? Nor does paying a professor more money make them any smarter or
> better. So why not put the money where it would be most effective. But
> again, it isn't just overpaid professors, it is also administrators that
> misspend public funds including overpaying themselves.
>
> I think the Palouse has a lot to offer. Good K-12 schools, safe
> neighborhoods, great public parks and wonderful people, not to mention the
> beauty of Idaho and no 45 minute commute to work. Things a higher salary
> cannot buy in other areas that offer comparable salaries.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/26/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:36 AM
>
> The point is you're already unhappy with the quality of professors.
> Please tell me how your plan will improve things.
>
> Exactly how will paying professors less improve the quality of education?
>
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Thanks for the dialogue. There are limits on what doctors can charge for
> medicare and medicaid whom represent the poorest and most vulnerable of our
> society. I think there should be limits on what someone can charge when
> something is either a necessity of living or is subsidized by the taxpayer.
> If it is neither, then I think you can charge what you wish. I don't think
> UI and WSU exist to hire the best and brightest professors, as the people
> of Idaho and Washington don't need it. What they need is a quality
> higher education they can afford.
>
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 2/25/11, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: " <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> < <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 2:38 PM
>
> In a free market place, what counts as an "unfair profit"? Do you think
> that the money that doctors are allowed to charge the uninsured is "fair"?
> Do you think the price for baseball tickets is fair or unfair? Are we
> required to cap textbooks and education costs but not doctor fees?
>
> I have to tell your overall education "plan" is unlikely to get the best
> and the brightest higher ed teachers: 5% pay-cut, no more than $70,000
> per-year, a limit on how much they can charge for their own textbooks, etc.
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that some people are trying to make unfair profit by
> raking advantage of poor struggling students when they charge so much for
> textbooks. What is sad is that part of the rip off is coming from people
> that are so-called pro-education and already doing well without the income
> of ripping off students and making education less accessible for many
> people. Education has become a for profit business with limited access to
> most people, not a priority any longer for our society as it should be and
> once was.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Fri, 2/25/11, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Kenneth Marcy" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> >
> Cc: " <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> < <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 4:33 AM
>
> Keep in mind that the libraries, which Donovan mentions, are part of that
> captive audience.
>
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2011, at 11:54 PM, Kenneth Marcy <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday 24 February 2011 21:22:25 Donovan Arnold wrote:
> >> Why are college books five times the price of other books? Who has $70
> for
> >> each book? Especially when you can get all that information for free
> >> online or at your local library.
> >
> > College books are more expensive because, historically, publishers have
> > accustomed themselves to semi-captive markets -- if they can capture
> adopting
> > professors, they (authors and publishers) can augment their revenues from
>
> > students required to avail themselves of the texts. Semi-captive markets
> are
> > not competitive, so suppliers can raise prices. I suspect this isn't
> news.
> >
> > You may notice that some of the MIT Press books have higher prices, say
> $70,
> > for cloth covered books, and lower prices, say $35, for paperback covers
> over
> > the same published materials. You don't have to pay the higher price if
> the
> > paperback cover is acceptable.
> >
> > It's true that some philosophical texts have been available for as long
> as
> > dozens of centuries. Many of those texts are readily available. Various
> texts
> > from different authors have content specific, if not unique, to that text
> and
> > its distinct author. A particular text from a particular author may not
> be
> > represented by any other author's text, so one may have to have that
> specific
> > text to understand what that particular author thought and wrote on that
> > subject at that time. So, if one wishes to read specific writings
> associated
> > with participants in the annual philosophy conference on the Palouse,
> one
> > needs these volumes, not just general search access to the Internet or a
> local
> > library card.
> >
> > On the other hand, sometimes information that has been around for
> centuries,
> > and is available if one looks for it, can be repackaged in ways
> attractive to
> > professors and expensive for students, to the distinct benefit of
> publishers
> > and their authors. For example, James Stewart is a Canadian math
> professor and
> > author of many books, most notably a series of calculus books that have
> earned
> > him quite a bit of money. He chose to invest a large amount of it in his
> > personal residence, which he calls Integral House. Here is a link to a
> Wall
> > Street Journal article with a description and images of the residence.
> >
> >
> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle><http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle><http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
> >
> > Here is a link to a MAA interview with James Stewart:
> >
> > <http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html><http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html><http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html>
> http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html
> >
> > I suppose if one is into jealousy, envy, and schadenfreude one might take
> some
> > enjoyment from the thought of the Canadian real estate market taking its
> toll
> > on his investment, but if he's not in the market to sell his home any
> time
> > soon, it's probably a moot point to anyone but the most wicked and cruel.
> >
> > Investment diversity remains the recommended strategy, despite his
> mansion.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
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