[Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Fri Feb 18 17:12:43 PST 2011
No Donovan; I'm just criticizing your argument.
You make it seem like the mere criticism of your argument is some kind of insult. It isn't.
And I don't see how we get from your bad argument to my being a "pompous ass." In fact we don't. That's just another bad argument!
On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:50 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> You are again intentionally just being a pompous ass. It has become so nature for you to put something smartassish in every comment you make. This is why people feel no sympathy for $100K taxpayer supported positions being axed or reduced when the budget gets tight. You contribute nothing to society as in this conversation, or any conversation. You twist the meaning of what people mean, play semantics, and think that it demonstrates your superior intellect and education when it in fact it only demonstrates your sophistication and capacity of being a worthless ass with no useful skills to society, whatsoever.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>, "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:26 AM
>
> "Donovan" that is not what I'm doing. Which is why you won't quote your own words and show me the difference in "structure." What was the stricter of your argument, by the way?
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2011, at 10:40 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Roger,
>>
>> That isn't what he is doing. He offers an argument with a slightly different structure to make it a much weaker argument that nobody would really honestly make, it is called a strawman argument. He then exposes the obvious flaws in his new made up weaker argument that he tries to assign as mine.
>>
>> In this argument he shifts the argument about what the Constitution specifically says to one about what it doesn't say.
>>
>> My argument is that the Constitution states specifically what the Federal Governments powers are and everything else not mentioned is a power that goes to the states. The Constitution doesn't specifically mention the power to force residents of the states to purchase items. So, it cannot do that. Only the states, or the people can force people to purchase items.
>>
>> Joe's strawman argument confused the reader with thinking my argument is making the claim that "ANYTHING" not specifically mentioned in the Constitution should be considered unconstitutional. That is not my argument.
>>
>> Joe is using his knowledge of logical argumentation to be more misleading and dishonest, rather than engaging in an honest dialogue about an important issue.
>>
>> Donovan Arnold
>>
>> --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .
>> To: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> Cc: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 9:39 PM
>>
>> It is a counterexample to Donovan's argument.
>>
>> In a counterexample, what you do is you offer an argument with the same structure as the one you are critiquing but with an obviously false conclusion.
>>
>> That shows that the premises of the first argument (Donovan's in this case) don't support the conclusion.
>>
>> The illogic of my argument, which you admit, illustrates the the illogic of Donovan's argument. Thanks for pointing that out!
>>
>> But don't believe me. I've only been teaching logic for 20 years!
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:12 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>>
>> > You teach logic. Where is the logic in this statement?
>> > Roger
>> > -----Original message-----
>> > From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>> > Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 07:56:59 -0800
>> > To: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .
>> >
>> >> I don't see anything in the constitution about the Internet.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore, Donovan's last post is unconstitutional.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 16, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> "The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. "--Art Deco
>> >>>
>> >>> This is a completely different situation on several levels;
>> >>>
>> >>> First, there is a difference between a state requiring you to demonstrate while operating a heavy piece of equipment you have the means to pay for any damage to property, versus that of the federal government requiring you with buy a particular product.
>> >>>
>> >>> I can escape the insurance requirement in Idaho by either moving out of state, choosing not to drive, or I can save up enough money to demonstrate I can pay for damages i may incur while operating a piece of heavy equipment on public highways and roadways.
>> >>>
>> >>> Federal Mandated Health Insurance I cannot do the same thing. I cannot move out of state. I cannot disown or park my body (I am stuck with). And I can never demonstrate that I have enough money to pay for reasonable health problems, and that could be in the millions very easily.
>> >>>
>> >>> And of course there is the Constitutional issue that it reserves all rights not listed in it to the states. I don't see anything in the constitution giving the Federal Government the authority to require people to buy a particular product. Although I think the government can get around this issue in the same way as it did in 80s by changing the drinking age to 21, forcing the states to comply by withholding federal dollars.
>> >>>
>> >>> I personally think it is a bad idea to have the federal government be able to make you buy something. Especially when its goal of providing health care to everyone will not succeed this way. The only way to get everyone to have access to health care is to tax people and provide it, just like every other service the government provides.
>> >>>
>> >>> Donovan Arnold
>> >>>
>> >>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> From: Art Deco <deco at moscow.com>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .
>> >>> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >>> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 3:36 PM
>> >>>
>> >>> The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. The courts have ruled that this is a legitimate power of the government. It will be interesting to see how this issue as it relates to health insurance is argued in the courts.
>> >>>
>> >>> w.
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: Donovan Arnold
>> >>> To: Moscow Vision 2020 ; Tom Hansen
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:07 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .
>> >>>
>> >>> I have to agree that the government does not have the authority to compel you to participate in buying health Insurance or any product or service from a private company. Especially when it is such a rip-off and there is no regulation on what these insurance companies can collectively decide they want you to pay once you are required by to purchase it from them. They could charge $500-$1500 a month and you would have to pay it. If they wanted to tax you and provide access to health care that would be within their legal authority because that is what the government does.
>> >>>
>> >>> However, I don't agree with the wording of the bill that employers should be allowed to get away with not offering any health insurance without raising their minimum paid wages. You cannot afford health insurance on $7.25 an hour. Hell, you cannot even afford quality health insurance at $12.50 an hour working 50 hours a week when the government is skimming 40 cents on every dollar you sweat blood and tears to make. Employers should have some basic responsibility for the welfare of their employers especially when many employers put their employees at risk for lots of health problems. Working conditions need to be beyond third world standards here in Idaho. Idahoan workers deserve at least this much. Too bad the Governor of Idaho and the majority of the current legislature doesn't agree.
>> >>>
>> >>> Donovan Arnold
>> >>>
>> >>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - Federal Health Care . . .
>> >>> To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >>> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 11:43 AM
>> >>>
>> >>> Has passed the Idaho House by a vote of 49-20.
>> >>>
>> >>> http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm
>> >>>
>> >>> Tom Hansen
>> >>> Moscow, Idaho
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
>> >>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>> >>>
>> >>> - Unknown
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>> >>>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
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