[Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Tue Feb 8 14:05:20 PST 2011
Dear Donovan,
I'm sure Palin and Bush earned their degrees. And blaming bad students on
the education system is like blaming Wall St. for your bad investments (as
opposed to other things).
If you can't see the connection between the 5% pay cut, reduction of teacher
salaries, and rising education costs let me make it clear for you. People no
long want to pay for education; it is no longer deemed the good it once was
and in the eyes of the general public it is not worth paying for. Granted
this is part of a general distrust of big government -- for good reasons as
well as bad -- but the fallout on education from the anti-tax movement
should be no big surprise. That given lack of funds (at least 20% at WSU
when all is said and done) the economic burdens will shift and ultimately
the consumer, the student (when we look at education on the business model)
will pay more, is pretty simple math. Unless Superman is lurking on the
horizon.
On the list below, I don't see any specific problems about the education
system, as opposed to funding problems, unless you just assume that there is
waste. But in that case, please point to specific areas of waste. Who/what
should we cut? I don't make those decisions but I talk to people who do.
They want to know what to cut, what is waste and what is essential to the
education system. They are pretty smart people, pretty good people and they
are trying their best to make hard decisions during difficult times. If it
is so easy, tell me exactly what you would cut and what you would save,
point to explicit examples of waste in the education system.
I don't see how advocating for a 5% pay cut, which is what we began talking
about, is going to help stem the rising costs of education get primary
educators a salary increase. It will just send the message that we CAN do
more with less; that the problems are problems of waste, when in fact they
are not. If anything, education is underfunded. You want to cut education
costs and increase teacher's salaries? But you don't want to raise taxes!?!
I don't see how cutting the slim resources we already have is going to
suddenly make it all better. But that's just my view!
I suppose, following the business model, that we could outsource education.
For a lot of people this will work. Someone mentioned to me off-list that he
could take courses at Harvard for less than he would pay for on-line courses
at UI. Honestly, knowing him this strikes me as a good idea. He can do it.
Certainly there are plenty of self-learners who will excel in a system of
on-line courses. But not everyone will excel. Likely the standards will go
down, as you note affordability will go up, but so will the number of
degrees. It will get to the point where having a degree will no longer be a
viable means of distinguishing you from everyone else when you go to look
for a job. The degree will be more or less worthless unless you are able to
distinguish yourself from the others with degrees. Actually learning how to
critically think, how to write, how to communicate, etc. will be beneficial
in this situation, for it will distinguish you from the others, not all of
whom will excel on tests like the MCAT, the LSAT, the GMAT, and the verbal
GRE.
It is worth noting that we already have a 2,000 year-old system in place for
trying to teach people these very skills. Can we download it to an on-line
system run by persons from a 3rd world country who can do it for 1/3 of the
costs? I have my doubts but we should at least KNOW that we can download it
before we trash it.
We are back to the point I made before. An education system has two goals:
helping people to find jobs and teaching them skills that ensure that they
keep those jobs, and even advance to a higher job-level. If we serve one
function without serving the other, we are just cheating the general public
as well as the consumer, the student.
All the Best, Joe
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> You must be blind.
>
> How specific of an example do you need to know the educational system is
> dysfunctional? For starters, it gave Sarah Palin a degree from UI and Bush a
> Masters from Harvard. Tom Luna is the Superintendent of Education in Idaho.
> Teachers are getting a 5% cut in wages. Elementary teachers are paid less
> than half what they should be. The cost of education is doubling every few
> years. Idaho has one of the lowest percentages of college graduates in the
> country. Idaho has one of one the lowest rates for funding of education. Our
> education system as a whole has produced a generation of people that have
> destroyed the economy, racked up a $12 trillion debt (I am not even sure
> how much that is), and ruined the Earth's environment for generations to
> come. The overall quality of life and ability to obtain a job with a livable
> wage for college graduatesis lower than it has even been. Idaho better funds
> roads then education. That is just for starters.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 2/7/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Kai Eiselein" <
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com>
> Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 11:18 AM
>
>
> What counts as evidence that the current system has "run amok" or has
> "failed"? You keep making these accusations but the support is lacking. This
> is just anti-government tea party hysteria.
>
> Please support your claims with some specific examples.
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Rest assured I find your arrogance and offensiveness as equally disturbing
> if not more so, but I don't charge $300 a credit for mine or call it my day
> job. It is apparent that you are a philosophy major because of your
> fondness and overuse of red herrings and strawmen in most of your arguments.
>
>
> I never claimed any department is worthless. Our educational system and its
> funding has run amok. It needs to be relevant and useful in the world and
> keep people employed. Stating that a university must either produce a job or
> an excellent education is a false dilemma, as both should and can be
> achieved. Colleges and universities should face cutbacks when they have
> failed in this venture and because they are overcharging for the services
> they provide. Likewise, one that are successful should be further
> rewarded. The value of an education does not increase by 10% a year, yet
> they do charge 10% more every year. College books are bogus. The food on
> campus is as unhealthy and contrary to learning as a brick to the head. On
> top of this students are forced to buy worthless expensive health insurance
> and are loaded with an endless list of fees for every thing an administrator
> can think up. Many colleges and universities leave students with a
> moutntain of debt to last their entire lives with no job skills or future
> prospects to pay it off. This is highly unethical. There needs to be some
> accountablity.
>
> A student who paid $30,000 for a BA degree should not be bagging groceries
> at the Co-op for $7.75 an hour. And a person that spend $50,000 for a MS at
> UI should not be working as the office assistant to the assistant of the
> Dean of a department. Yet this is what is happening. There needs to be some
> accountability of how 100s of billions of federal, state, local, and private
> dollars are being spent and just what they are producting.
>
> I find private colleges like Brown Mackie and Carrington out right fraud
> and total abuse of educationial dollars. Those colleges are built for the
> sole purpose of milking ignorant students out of the thousands of federal
> dollars used to provide them with a well rounded education and job skills.
>
> If a college, university, trade school, or any educationial institution
> cannot provide a well rounded education with relevevant job skills in
> today's century, they should have their public funds prorated. It is that
> simple.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 2:32 PM
>
> I honestly have little desire to talk with you Donovan. You're offensive
> and ignorant -- a bad combination. But this is an important issue so I need
> to clear up some of your misconceptions.
>
> What if folks demand basket weaving and not engineering? Does that mean we
> should give it do them? You're argument is actually appealing to two
> different concerns: what people want and what is good for them. The fact is
> most people don't know what is good for them, educationally speaking. You
> are actually a great example of this, advocating policies that will weaken
> the overall education system while (seemingly) thinking that you're doing it
> some good.
>
> Here is a nice example. Which major finishes number 1 on the GMAT, the test
> for business graduate school? Philosophy majors. Which major finishes dead
> last on the same test? Business majors. Philosophy majors finish high on the
> LSAT, MCAT, GRE-verbal (better than English majors), and better than
> non-science/math majors on GRE-quantitative. But is there a high demand for
> philosophy majors? No. Are there more business majors than philosophy
> majors? Yes by a long shot.
>
> Universities have dual responsibilities. On the one hand, we should give
> the public what they want. If folks want to major in business, we should
> provide them that alternative. On the V alone we'd find several folks who
> majored in business and have had pretty good lives, following their dreams,
> wants, and desires. Higher ed needs to serve that function, to be sure. But
> we also have to offer courses that are good for people, courses that will
> teach folks the kinds of skills needed in the work place. These include
> communication skills, critical thinking skills, and other skills that have
> been traditionally offered in standard liberal arts majors.
>
> You can't measure the value of a major or a course by asking "How many
> people have that job?" Few people work as a living as philosophers but that
> in and of itself has little to do with the value of a philosophy degree. The
> fact is that relatively few majors translate directly into jobs: business,
> graphic design, nursing, and engineering are a few that I can think of. What
> matters is what folks can do with the SKILLS they learn in college, and
> which majors do a good job of teaching those skills? The answer to this
> question will pick out a number of majors that are important to offer
> whether or not they are the majors that the majority of folks want.
>
> I'm against colleges in general and state universities in particular
> becoming trade schools. We already have those kinds of institutions. Real
> education, and how best to make it available to the general public, is a
> much more complicated and difficult matter than you imagine it to be.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Darrell,
>
> That was my point in the beginning that Prof. Campbell rejected, that you
> need to teach to the market demand or your quality of education will
> decline. If WSU wants to produce more Basket Weaving Courses than Electrical
> Engineering, we are going to have to fund education on a bunch of unemployed
> or low paid basket weavers versus employed Electrical Engineers. If you fill
> the jobs that are needed with relevant education to the needed skill-sets to
> feed the market you have an employed society that pays taxes and improves
> educational funding. That is the change that needs to be made, not lower
> quality instructors of basket weaving.
>
> Universities that figure this out will do well, and those that don't will
> keep getting 5% salary cuts until they do, or end up on the unemployment
> lines looking for a basket weaving job. that doesn't exist.
>
> In otherwords, cut or elminate departments that produce little
> for employment and better fund develop and promote departments that do.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 12:06 PM
>
>
> While I agree the continued rise in cost is unsustainable, it really is not
> that simple. When you seek to have your business compete nationally, you've
> got to pay a wage that will be attractive. Pay your faculty less, get less
> qualified people, resulting in poorer programs, fewer students, even less
> ability to pay a decent salary... and on and on.
>
> Fortunately through this wonderful thing called Mr. Market we as a society
> place a value on different positions. Mr. Market has spoken, and to
> disagree is to lower the quality of education available.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Darrell,
>
> It is that simple, the continued rise in cost of a college education is
> unjustifiable and unsustainable, especially considering a four year degree
> in social sciences isn't worth the paper it is printed on.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 11:53 AM
>
>
> If only it were so simple.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> And that is exactly why we are having salary cuts, Darrell.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 11:43 AM
>
>
> A comparison of apples to oranges is really no comparison, Donovan.
>
> Profs aren't hired according to the local salary range. Searches are done
> nationally, and salaries must be competitive nationally.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Darrell,
>
> My point wasn't what he should make, or what he makes, just that he
> makes far more than the average Joe. A fact regardless of your opinion of
> it.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:35 AM
>
>
> No I can't. I don't know what he makes, and don't care to look it up
> and/or discuss it.
>
> I can argue more generically that a profs pay is not necessarily
> commensurate with qualifications. The private world typically would pay
> better for someone with equivalent qualifications.
>
> A quick look at the 2000 US Census shows the salary curve at that point in
> time for the US (Inflation means these numbers have probably gone up since
> then).
> <http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?fpt=table>
> http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?fpt=table
>
> Most professors seem to make $60-$80k. This is within the middle portion
> of the distribution curve-not outlying on either side. When you consider
> the qualifications req'd for a professorial position, most profs aren't
> raking in the bucks.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Nobody thinks they are paid enough. But you cannot argue that Joe makes
> less than the average Joe.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Fri, 2/4/11, Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: "Joe Campbell" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>>,
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 11:02 AM
>
> I'll bet Joe differs with your opinion of how much he is paid.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> I'm not the one complaining, you are. I am content with my profession. I
> chose a profession with low pay and high stability, and you chose a job with
> high pay and low stability.
>
> There is a lot of bogus jobs and overpaid administrators in education, as
> there is in all levels of government. There are lots of highly funded
> programs that don't produce jobs or contribute much to society in proportion
> to there public funding.
>
> Your are absolutely right that the educational departments at Universities
> use about 90% of the budget for salaries. However, Universtities have many
> departments that are not education related and use a lot of taxpayer
> resoursces.
>
> You ask for waste, here is a list; The University would be fine if it axed
> the majority of administrators and gave the duties to faculty and staff. It
> would have been fine without a Student Rec Center, or the T1 system. And it
> doesn't need out of area overpriced administrators whom leave every other
> year. It doesn't need a Student Health Care Center, it doesn't need two
> football feilds, or three golf courses. It doesn't need a 1/2 dozen Vice
> Presidents. It doesn't need water fountains that freeze and break every
> winter. It doesn't need a seperate police force. It doesn't need
> professional overpriced interior decorators either. And it certainly doesn't
> need a half empty 5 level library.
> Every business cuts staff and salaries, it is how they stay in business. I
> have not worked at a private organization that did not and stayed in
> business. I grew up in a business family. The last three jobs I had have cut
> staff and wages. Micron cut wages, and it has now rebound. If it hadn't cut
> those wages, laid staff off it would have cost more jobs in the long run as
> it would have shut down.
>
> I would fund education based on future market demands. If society needs 100
> new engineers and two new basket weavers, it would fund for 100 new
> engineers and two new basket weavers, not the other way around and wonder
> why the economy isn't running smoothly.
>
> Education is suffering because the tax dollars are not there because people
> are not trained in the correct professions. There are plenty of jobs out
> there, and plenty of unemployed. The problem is that the unemployed are
> not trained to do the jobs that are needed to get the economy going again.
>
> Future market based job demand is the way to determine which departments
> grow or shrink. Otherwise you run out of money and need to cut everyone's
> wages by 5% of more.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 2/3/11, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Darrell Keim" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:32 PM
>
>
> Darrell, Donovan, and Kai:
>
> THANK YOU, Darrell! But I'm aware that I'm not alone, and nor do I think
> that I have it bad or even worse than others (Kai is a good -- or maybe bad
> -- example of someone who has suffered more than I'm likely to suffer). I
> have more than a few relatives who have been forced into early retirement,
> as well.
>
> I was speaking about private industry when I made the claim that no one
> makes across the board cuts. Government is like education: not a good model
> for examples of how to run a business. Donovan says "This sort of thing
> happens all the time in the business world" but I don't recall the last time
> McDonald's or IBM cut EVERYONE's wages 5%. I don't see this as a viable
> business strategy and if we're going to adopt a business model for higher ed
> (not something I agree with, but that's another issue), then let's go all
> the way. Let's act like a REAL business and make hard choices. Perhaps I'm
> missing something but I really can't think of many examples where PRIVATE
> industries cut salaries 5% across the board. Maybe Donovan or whomever can
> offer an example or two or three.
>
> Donovan also says: "The problem is not that people don't want to spend
> money on education, or that enough is not being spent, it is that it is
> being misappropriated and not effectively used as it could be."
>
> This is propaganda bullshit, honestly. Give 5 examples of misappropriated
> use of funding at UI or WSU. The misconception is that there is a lot of
> waste, a lot of fat to be cut in higher ed. In the philosophy department at
> WSU, salary is over 90% of the overall budget. The rest is our copy machine,
> phones, etc. We've been doing budget exercises for years now and, trust me,
> the fat has been cut. The only way to cut funding further in higher ed is to
> cut salaries (either across the board or by firing specific people). That is
> it. When you talk about cutting education, you are talking about cutting the
> salaries of the majority of people in this region.
>
> Try to be part of the solution, Donovan, instead of just complaining about
> the problems. Please tell us, explicitly, which people you would fire in
> order to get the budget to your liking. Which departments would you cut?
> Which services? Which staff? These are difficult decisions and I'm glad I
> don't have to make them. You seem to be under the delusion that our problems
> are due to mismanagement. They are not. They are due to either (a) a
> bureaucratic system that has more folks than they need (in which case you
> should tell us whom to get rid of) or (b) a public that is unaware of the
> costs of adequate education and/or unwilling to pay for it.
>
> Kai writes: "I get really tired of public.sector employees whining about
> pay cuts and furloughs while private sector employees get hammered. Where
> the hell do public employees think the money for their paychecks comes from?
> The magic funding fairy?"
>
> I'm not whining about anything. I'm just saying across the board cuts and
> furloughs are a bad idea. You want to fire 5% of the work force? Do it.
> Don't hide the fact that you want to pay less for education (yet expect to
> get the same) by spreading the pain. Getting rid of 5% of the work force is
> a BETTER idea than cutting 5% across the board. Again, show me a viable
> private business that adopts this model and I'll change my tune.
>
> And for the record, EVERYONE's salary comes from others. I agree that
> others are ultimately paying my salary but this is true of EVERYONE. We're
> all paying each other's salary.
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Darrell Keim <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Kai: I hated to see that happen to you. Hated it. I really enjoyed The
> Latah Eagle, and feel a void in local news since it closed.
>
> Joe: Boy do I agree with your comments on education. Across the board is
> not the way to go. I can't speak to other schools, but WSU really seems top
> heavy. The administrators and athletics take up huge budget chunks, and I
> question the value.
>
> There are examples outside of education where the types of cuts you
> describe happen. I can't think of examples in private industry, but I can
> think of examples in gov't. For instance, last year the Idaho Department of
> Health and Welfare took huge cuts. It started with an across the board
> furlough. It ended with the department being decimated by budget cuts.
> While I feel your pain in education, realize you are not totally alone in
> being singled out for these types of cuts.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Sorry to hear about your troubles, Kai!
>
> But there is no way that an across the board cut is the way to go. It is a
> bad idea. If someone can show me examples of businesses where this kind of
> approach happens with the regularity it is used to "solve" problems in
> education I might change my mind. But it is my impression that in most cases
> in the cold, hard, real world when they need to save 5%, people get fired.
> The fact is folks no longer value education. The public seems unwilling to
> pay for higher education to the extent that they once did. The 5% cut
> suggests that the answer to this is that we (those of us in higher
> education) do what we've been doing and take a pay cut. The assumption is
> that even though the folks at UI have not received a raise in over 5 years
> and have accepted a furlough, that they should now accept a 5% pay cut and
> everything will continue as it once did, doing more with less. Again, I have
> a hard time thinking of examples outside of education where this kind of
> thing happens. It strikes me as a kind of dream world.
>
> Fire people, make class sizes larger than they already are, and make
> professors less available and accessible to the students than they were when
> you and I were in school. Make it hurt. See what you get. Show the public
> the kind of education system that they are willing to pay for. If they want
> something more -- more teachers, more employees, more jobs -- they should
> pay for it.
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Kai Eiselein <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Chris, let me get this straight.
> You took a demotion to stay employed.
> You are facing a 5% pay cut.
> You still have a job.
> Try this:
> Work for years to purchase a business in an industry you love.
> You finally purchase the business of your dreams.
> The economy tanks two months after you purchase said business.
> Eleven months later you close the doors after watching your dreams turn to
> dust in front of your eyes.
> You walk away unemployed, $100K in debt with nothing to show for it and
> begin trying to figure out how to get yourself out of this hole.
>
> And you are worried about 5 effin percent.
> Three words: Kiss my a$$
>
> > From:
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> vision2020-request at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> > Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 15
> > To: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:33 -0800
> >
> > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
> > <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > <http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020>
> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> vision2020-request at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com>
> vision2020-owner at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com>
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: A proposal to balance the budget (lfalen)
> > 2. picture non-political (lfalen)
> > 3. Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Kenneth Marcy)
> > 4. Re: Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Ron Force)
> > 5. Re: Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Carl Westberg)
> > 6. Senate Democrats Block GOP Bid to Repeal Health Care Law
> > (Tom Hansen)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:01:53 -0800
> > From: lfalen <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> lfalen at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A proposal to balance the budget
> > To: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> bear at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> > Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f4750eea6e468415dd48b8b1161cc901@turbonet.com>
> f4750eea6e468415dd48b8b1161cc901 at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f4750eea6e468415dd48b8b1161cc901@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >
> > My wife also took a furlough last year and offered to take one again this
> year. She does not have any option. If her boss does not have a grant, she
> is cut.
> > Roger
> >
> > ----Original message-----
> > From: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> bear at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> > Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:50:22 -0800
> > To: "lfalen"
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> lfalen at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A proposal to balance the budget
> >
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > As someone who has had to face the cuts imposed by CALS, I find your
> > > suggestions a but short sighted. I did not have science or research in
> my
> > > title and have over 8 years of seniority but I still was laid off by
> the
> > > College and to retain employment and benefits was forced to take a
> > > demotion. I was also one of the few people in CALS that had to take
> > > furlough days last year. Yet you suggest I should be willing and even
> > > happy to accept a 5% cut! While I feel for the people who now have to
> be
> > > paid via grant funding via the PI, the fact remains that is an option
> for
> > > them. Why shouldn't the extension offices as state and federal
> employees
> > > take the same cuts that have been imposed by the Gov. as the on campus
> > > departments and offices have had to absorb?
> > >
> > > All I am saying is that the problem is more complex than everyone take
> a
> > > 5% cut across the board.
> > >
> > > Chris Price
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Here are some proposals to balance Federal, State and University
> Budgets
> > > > .
> > > > First I would take care of the mentally ill, the disabled and our
> > > > veterans.
> > > > All government employees (state and Federal) should take a 5% pay
> cut. The
> > > > private sector has taken cuts(except for Wall Street and a few
> others).
> > > > This should start with all Federal legislators. State legislators are
> not
> > > > paid that much in Idaho.
> > > > The University could easily balance their budget by doing so. Instead
> they
> > > > are making cuts at the low end. Cals is making the cuts on those
> staff
> > > > that have science or research in their title. This is a highly
> arbitrary
> > > > way to do it and is not based on merit or seniority. The PI that they
> > > > work for will have to come up with half their salary from other
> sources
> > > > such as grants. My wife has been cut to 87.5%. She is now paid for 7
> hours
> > > > but still puts in about 12 hours a day. In june she will probably be
> cut
> > > > to half time. This means that her benefits will no longer be picked
> up by
> > > > the University. One can not afford to work for that, She has worked
> for
> > > > the UI for over 40 years. She has 3 more years to go before reaching
> SS
> > > > retirement age.
> > > > An across the board 5% cut would not hurt anyone that much and it
> would
> > > > easier to save the desired dollars than cutting some staff by 80 or
> 50%
> > > > The UI has opened up 4 offices in China to recruit students. Why? The
> UI
> > > > is a land grant college. They should take care of their base first.
> > > > Recruit in China when times are better.
> > > > Other ways to save money. Review all government agencies for ways
> they
> > > > can be reduced. All agencies should come with a sunset. If after a
> set
> > > > period of time they would need to be re-evaluated and authorised. If
> the
> > > > wern't they would go out of existence. All lawmakers should be on the
> same
> > > > benefits that they legislate for the rest of us.
> > > > All cuts in pay or personnel should start at the top. The UI like
> most
> > > > other government agencies have greatly expanded at the administrative
> > > > level. That is where the cuts should start. Diversity is important,
> but
> > > > the UI does nt need in excess of 20 people to handle it. There should
> be
> > > > on director and an assistant. They can then work with someone in the
> > > > individual departments or colleges.
> > > > If Administrators were trimmed back at the Federal, State and
> University
> > > > level more programs and jobs could be save on balance.
> > > > Help the handicapped fine jobs. When I was with Carnation and Manna
> Pro
> > > > our Small World line of Wild bird seeds were packaged by handicapped
> > > > people.
> > > > These are only a few things that can be done to balance the budget
> and at
> > > > the same time save valuable programs such as aid for the mentally
> ill.
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > <http://www.fsr.net/>http://www.fsr.net
> > > > mailto:<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:37:09 -0800
> > From: lfalen <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> lfalen at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Vision2020] picture non-political
> > To: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f8e72a889022aa6284529e8b24b40737@turbonet.com>
> f8e72a889022aa6284529e8b24b40737 at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f8e72a889022aa6284529e8b24b40737@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Maynard Fosberg's horse,( Tucker) made the front page of today's Daily
> News.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:18:13 -0800
> > From: Kenneth Marcy <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> > To: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=201102021418.14015.kmmos1@frontier.com>
> 201102021418.14015.kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=201102021418.14015.kmmos1@frontier.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Temperature (Fahrenheit):
> > Bellevue, WA: 52.3; Moscow, ID: 28.8
> > Updated: 1:21 PM PST on February 02, 2011
> >
> > Elevation above mean sea level (feet):
> > Bellevue, WA: 300; Moscow, ID: 2650
> >
> > Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:17:58 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Ron Force <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> rforce2003 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> > To: Kenneth Marcy <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>>,
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=776999.87710.qm@web46114.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> 776999.87710.qm at web46114.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=776999.87710.qm@web46114.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > So does a large body of water...
> >
> > Ron Force
> > Moscow Idaho USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> > Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:24 -0800
> > From: Carl Westberg <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=idahovandal1@live.com>
> idahovandal1 at live.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=idahovandal1@live.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> > To: <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > Message-ID: <SNT105-W303447164AAFC4DE134796E9E40 at phx.gbl<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=SNT105-W303447164AAFC4DE134796E9E40@phx.gbl>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > So Paradise Creek doesn't count? I mean there are times you can almost
> see water in it.
> >
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:17:58 -0800
> > From:
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> rforce2003 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> > To: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>;
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> >
> >
> >
> > So does a large body of water...
> > Ron Force
> > Moscow Idaho USA
> >
> >
> >
> > Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > <http://www.fsr.net/>http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110202/40af6f4e/attachment-0001.html>
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110202/40af6f4e/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:33 -0800 (PST)
> > From: "Tom Hansen" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>
> thansen at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Senate Democrats Block GOP Bid to Repeal Health
> > Care Law
> > To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
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> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Courtesy of CNN at:
> >
> > <http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/02/senate.health.care/index.html>
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/02/senate.health.care/index.html
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Senate Democrats block GOP bid to repeal health care law
> > Washington (CNN) -- Senate Democrats on Wednesday blocked a Republican
> > effort to repeal the health care reform bill passed last year.
> >
> > The 51-47 vote, along party lines, meant the procedural motion failed to
> > get the necessary 60 votes to pass.
> >
> > The Republican-controlled House of Representatives has passed a bill to
> > repeal the health care overhaul. However, Democrats used their majority
> in
> > the Senate to block a similar measure proposed by the Republican minority
> > as an amendment to another bill.
> >
> > Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said Tuesday he wanted to
> get
> > the repeal effort "out of the system" so the Senate could move ahead with
> > other business, while his Republican counterpart said his party was
> > fulfilling an obligation to voters from last year's congressional
> > elections.
> >
> > "It would be a dereliction of duty if Republicans didn't fight for
> > repeal," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky. "We
> made
> > a promise to our constituents that we would vote to repeal this bill on
> > their behalf. And that's just what we intend to do."
> >
> > Wednesday's vote amounted to a push by Republicans to get Democratic
> > opposition to a full repeal on the record in the form of votes against
> the
> > amendment. Led by President Barack Obama, Democrats concede the health
> > care overhaul can be improved, but they oppose rolling back benefits for
> > consumers against health insurance industry practices such as denying
> > coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
> >
> > "We're not going to go back and fight the battles of the last two years,"
> > White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Wednesday. "We're not going
> > to go backward. We're going to move forward."
> >
> > Overall, the Republicans oppose the increased government role in
> > regulating health care, claiming it will impinge on individuals' right to
> > choose care options in the future. Democrats say the law enacted last
> year
> > will better control skyrocketing health care costs and expand coverage to
> > millions of people currently lacking health insurance.
> >
> > The specific motion the Senate voted on Wednesday involved a Democratic
> > challenge to the Republican repeal amendment on the grounds that it would
> > increase the federal deficit. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office
> > has said the health care reform law will lower the deficit, so Democrats
> > argue that repealing it would increase the deficit.
> >
> > By filing a budget point of order against the repeal amendment, Democrats
> > forced Republicans to hold a vote on waiving the point of order to
> > consider the amendment. That required 60 votes in the 100-seat Senate to
> > pass, a threshold out of reach of the Republicans, who hold 47 seats.
> >
> > Using the budget challenge was a way for Democrats to say they voted for
> > fiscal responsibility, while Republicans contend the public will
> > understand that the vote was really against the repeal of health care
> > reform.
> >
> > While a repeal of the entire health care law won't move forward, Senate
> > Democrats joined Republicans in voting for the elimination of a rule,
> > scheduled to take effect in 2012, requiring businesses to issue Form
> 1099s
> > to any individual or corporation from which they buy more than $600 in
> > goods or services in a year. Most liberals and conservatives view the
> rule
> > as an unnecessary burden on private-sector employers.
> >
> > The push for an outright repeal is one of several strategies currently
> > being pursued by the GOP leadership in order to undermine support for the
> > law. Senate Republicans also introduced legislation Tuesday that would
> > allow states to opt out of key provisions of the new health care law.
> >
> > Specifically, the bill would allow state governments to opt out of the
> > so-called "individual mandate" requiring everyone to obtain health care
> > coverage by 2014 or face penalties. It would also allow states to ignore
> > new mandates regarding employer-based coverage, insurance benefits and an
> > expansion of Medicaid.
> >
> > The motion was introduced one day after a federal judge in Florida issued
> > a sweeping ruling against the law, siding with 26 states that had
> > challenged the measure and setting up a likely Supreme Court challenge in
> > the months ahead.
> >
> > A federal judge in eastern Virginia has also found the health care law
> > unconstitutional, while two other federal judges, one in western Virginia
> > and one in Michigan, have ruled the opposite. Twelve other federal judges
> > have dismissed challenges to the law, according to the White House
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> > "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
> change
> > and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> >
> > - Unknown
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
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> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 15
> > ******************************************
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