[Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
Darrell Keim
keim153 at gmail.com
Sun Feb 6 12:06:48 PST 2011
While I agree the continued rise in cost is unsustainable, it really is not
that simple. When you seek to have your business compete nationally, you've
got to pay a wage that will be attractive. Pay your faculty less, get less
qualified people, resulting in poorer programs, fewer students, even less
ability to pay a decent salary... and on and on.
Fortunately through this wonderful thing called Mr. Market we as a society
place a value on different positions. Mr. Market has spoken, and to
disagree is to lower the quality of education available.
On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Darrell,
>
> It is that simple, the continued rise in cost of a college education is
> unjustifiable and unsustainable, especially considering a four year degree
> in social sciences isn't worth the paper it is printed on.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 11:53 AM
>
>
> If only it were so simple.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> And that is exactly why we are having salary cuts, Darrell.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 11:43 AM
>
>
> A comparison of apples to oranges is really no comparison, Donovan.
>
> Profs aren't hired according to the local salary range. Searches are done
> nationally, and salaries must be competitive nationally.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Darrell,
>
> My point wasn't what he should make, or what he makes, just that he
> makes far more than the average Joe. A fact regardless of your opinion of
> it.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/6/11, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:35 AM
>
>
> No I can't. I don't know what he makes, and don't care to look it up
> and/or discuss it.
>
> I can argue more generically that a profs pay is not necessarily
> commensurate with qualifications. The private world typically would pay
> better for someone with equivalent qualifications.
>
> A quick look at the 2000 US Census shows the salary curve at that point in
> time for the US (Inflation means these numbers have probably gone up since
> then).
> http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?fpt=table
>
> Most professors seem to make $60-$80k. This is within the middle portion
> of the distribution curve-not outlying on either side. When you consider
> the qualifications req'd for a professorial position, most profs aren't
> raking in the bucks.
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Nobody thinks they are paid enough. But you cannot argue that Joe makes
> less than the average Joe.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Fri, 2/4/11, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>>,
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 11:02 AM
>
> I'll bet Joe differs with your opinion of how much he is paid.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> I'm not the one complaining, you are. I am content with my profession. I
> chose a profession with low pay and high stability, and you chose a job with
> high pay and low stability.
>
> There is a lot of bogus jobs and overpaid administrators in education, as
> there is in all levels of government. There are lots of highly funded
> programs that don't produce jobs or contribute much to society in proportion
> to there public funding.
>
> Your are absolutely right that the educational departments at Universities
> use about 90% of the budget for salaries. However, Universtities have many
> departments that are not education related and use a lot of taxpayer
> resoursces.
>
> You ask for waste, here is a list; The University would be fine if it axed
> the majority of administrators and gave the duties to faculty and staff. It
> would have been fine without a Student Rec Center, or the T1 system. And it
> doesn't need out of area overpriced administrators whom leave every other
> year. It doesn't need a Student Health Care Center, it doesn't need two
> football feilds, or three golf courses. It doesn't need a 1/2 dozen Vice
> Presidents. It doesn't need water fountains that freeze and break every
> winter. It doesn't need a seperate police force. It doesn't need
> professional overpriced interior decorators either. And it certainly doesn't
> need a half empty 5 level library.
> Every business cuts staff and salaries, it is how they stay in business. I
> have not worked at a private organization that did not and stayed in
> business. I grew up in a business family. The last three jobs I had have cut
> staff and wages. Micron cut wages, and it has now rebound. If it hadn't cut
> those wages, laid staff off it would have cost more jobs in the long run as
> it would have shut down.
>
> I would fund education based on future market demands. If society needs 100
> new engineers and two new basket weavers, it would fund for 100 new
> engineers and two new basket weavers, not the other way around and wonder
> why the economy isn't running smoothly.
>
> Education is suffering because the tax dollars are not there because people
> are not trained in the correct professions. There are plenty of jobs out
> there, and plenty of unemployed. The problem is that the unemployed are
> not trained to do the jobs that are needed to get the economy going again.
>
> Future market based job demand is the way to determine which departments
> grow or shrink. Otherwise you run out of money and need to cut everyone's
> wages by 5% of more.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 2/3/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
> To: "Darrell Keim" <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> >
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> >
> Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:32 PM
>
>
> Darrell, Donovan, and Kai:
>
> THANK YOU, Darrell! But I'm aware that I'm not alone, and nor do I think
> that I have it bad or even worse than others (Kai is a good -- or maybe bad
> -- example of someone who has suffered more than I'm likely to suffer). I
> have more than a few relatives who have been forced into early retirement,
> as well.
>
> I was speaking about private industry when I made the claim that no one
> makes across the board cuts. Government is like education: not a good model
> for examples of how to run a business. Donovan says "This sort of thing
> happens all the time in the business world" but I don't recall the last time
> McDonald's or IBM cut EVERYONE's wages 5%. I don't see this as a viable
> business strategy and if we're going to adopt a business model for higher ed
> (not something I agree with, but that's another issue), then let's go all
> the way. Let's act like a REAL business and make hard choices. Perhaps I'm
> missing something but I really can't think of many examples where PRIVATE
> industries cut salaries 5% across the board. Maybe Donovan or whomever can
> offer an example or two or three.
>
> Donovan also says: "The problem is not that people don't want to spend
> money on education, or that enough is not being spent, it is that it is
> being misappropriated and not effectively used as it could be."
>
> This is propaganda bullshit, honestly. Give 5 examples of misappropriated
> use of funding at UI or WSU. The misconception is that there is a lot of
> waste, a lot of fat to be cut in higher ed. In the philosophy department at
> WSU, salary is over 90% of the overall budget. The rest is our copy machine,
> phones, etc. We've been doing budget exercises for years now and, trust me,
> the fat has been cut. The only way to cut funding further in higher ed is to
> cut salaries (either across the board or by firing specific people). That is
> it. When you talk about cutting education, you are talking about cutting the
> salaries of the majority of people in this region.
>
> Try to be part of the solution, Donovan, instead of just complaining about
> the problems. Please tell us, explicitly, which people you would fire in
> order to get the budget to your liking. Which departments would you cut?
> Which services? Which staff? These are difficult decisions and I'm glad I
> don't have to make them. You seem to be under the delusion that our problems
> are due to mismanagement. They are not. They are due to either (a) a
> bureaucratic system that has more folks than they need (in which case you
> should tell us whom to get rid of) or (b) a public that is unaware of the
> costs of adequate education and/or unwilling to pay for it.
>
> Kai writes: "I get really tired of public.sector employees whining about
> pay cuts and furloughs while private sector employees get hammered. Where
> the hell do public employees think the money for their paychecks comes from?
> The magic funding fairy?"
>
> I'm not whining about anything. I'm just saying across the board cuts and
> furloughs are a bad idea. You want to fire 5% of the work force? Do it.
> Don't hide the fact that you want to pay less for education (yet expect to
> get the same) by spreading the pain. Getting rid of 5% of the work force is
> a BETTER idea than cutting 5% across the board. Again, show me a viable
> private business that adopts this model and I'll change my tune.
>
> And for the record, EVERYONE's salary comes from others. I agree that
> others are ultimately paying my salary but this is true of EVERYONE. We're
> all paying each other's salary.
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Kai: I hated to see that happen to you. Hated it. I really enjoyed The
> Latah Eagle, and feel a void in local news since it closed.
>
> Joe: Boy do I agree with your comments on education. Across the board is
> not the way to go. I can't speak to other schools, but WSU really seems top
> heavy. The administrators and athletics take up huge budget chunks, and I
> question the value.
>
> There are examples outside of education where the types of cuts you
> describe happen. I can't think of examples in private industry, but I can
> think of examples in gov't. For instance, last year the Idaho Department of
> Health and Welfare took huge cuts. It started with an across the board
> furlough. It ended with the department being decimated by budget cuts.
> While I feel your pain in education, realize you are not totally alone in
> being singled out for these types of cuts.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Sorry to hear about your troubles, Kai!
>
> But there is no way that an across the board cut is the way to go. It is a
> bad idea. If someone can show me examples of businesses where this kind of
> approach happens with the regularity it is used to "solve" problems in
> education I might change my mind. But it is my impression that in most cases
> in the cold, hard, real world when they need to save 5%, people get fired.
> The fact is folks no longer value education. The public seems unwilling to
> pay for higher education to the extent that they once did. The 5% cut
> suggests that the answer to this is that we (those of us in higher
> education) do what we've been doing and take a pay cut. The assumption is
> that even though the folks at UI have not received a raise in over 5 years
> and have accepted a furlough, that they should now accept a 5% pay cut and
> everything will continue as it once did, doing more with less. Again, I have
> a hard time thinking of examples outside of education where this kind of
> thing happens. It strikes me as a kind of dream world.
>
> Fire people, make class sizes larger than they already are, and make
> professors less available and accessible to the students than they were when
> you and I were in school. Make it hurt. See what you get. Show the public
> the kind of education system that they are willing to pay for. If they want
> something more -- more teachers, more employees, more jobs -- they should
> pay for it.
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Kai Eiselein <fotopro63 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fotopro63@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Chris, let me get this straight.
> You took a demotion to stay employed.
> You are facing a 5% pay cut.
> You still have a job.
> Try this:
> Work for years to purchase a business in an industry you love.
> You finally purchase the business of your dreams.
> The economy tanks two months after you purchase said business.
> Eleven months later you close the doors after watching your dreams turn to
> dust in front of your eyes.
> You walk away unemployed, $100K in debt with nothing to show for it and
> begin trying to figure out how to get yourself out of this hole.
>
> And you are worried about 5 effin percent.
> Three words: Kiss my a$$
>
> > From: vision2020-request at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> > Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 15
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:33 -0800
> >
> > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
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> >
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> > http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: A proposal to balance the budget (lfalen)
> > 2. picture non-political (lfalen)
> > 3. Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Kenneth Marcy)
> > 4. Re: Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Ron Force)
> > 5. Re: Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Carl Westberg)
> > 6. Senate Democrats Block GOP Bid to Repeal Health Care Law
> > (Tom Hansen)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:01:53 -0800
> > From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A proposal to balance the budget
> > To: bear at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <f4750eea6e468415dd48b8b1161cc901 at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f4750eea6e468415dd48b8b1161cc901@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >
> > My wife also took a furlough last year and offered to take one again this
> year. She does not have any option. If her boss does not have a grant, she
> is cut.
> > Roger
> >
> > ----Original message-----
> > From: bear at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>
> > Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:50:22 -0800
> > To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A proposal to balance the budget
> >
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > As someone who has had to face the cuts imposed by CALS, I find your
> > > suggestions a but short sighted. I did not have science or research in
> my
> > > title and have over 8 years of seniority but I still was laid off by
> the
> > > College and to retain employment and benefits was forced to take a
> > > demotion. I was also one of the few people in CALS that had to take
> > > furlough days last year. Yet you suggest I should be willing and even
> > > happy to accept a 5% cut! While I feel for the people who now have to
> be
> > > paid via grant funding via the PI, the fact remains that is an option
> for
> > > them. Why shouldn't the extension offices as state and federal
> employees
> > > take the same cuts that have been imposed by the Gov. as the on campus
> > > departments and offices have had to absorb?
> > >
> > > All I am saying is that the problem is more complex than everyone take
> a
> > > 5% cut across the board.
> > >
> > > Chris Price
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Here are some proposals to balance Federal, State and University
> Budgets
> > > > .
> > > > First I would take care of the mentally ill, the disabled and our
> > > > veterans.
> > > > All government employees (state and Federal) should take a 5% pay
> cut. The
> > > > private sector has taken cuts(except for Wall Street and a few
> others).
> > > > This should start with all Federal legislators. State legislators are
> not
> > > > paid that much in Idaho.
> > > > The University could easily balance their budget by doing so. Instead
> they
> > > > are making cuts at the low end. Cals is making the cuts on those
> staff
> > > > that have science or research in their title. This is a highly
> arbitrary
> > > > way to do it and is not based on merit or seniority. The PI that they
> > > > work for will have to come up with half their salary from other
> sources
> > > > such as grants. My wife has been cut to 87.5%. She is now paid for 7
> hours
> > > > but still puts in about 12 hours a day. In june she will probably be
> cut
> > > > to half time. This means that her benefits will no longer be picked
> up by
> > > > the University. One can not afford to work for that, She has worked
> for
> > > > the UI for over 40 years. She has 3 more years to go before reaching
> SS
> > > > retirement age.
> > > > An across the board 5% cut would not hurt anyone that much and it
> would
> > > > easier to save the desired dollars than cutting some staff by 80 or
> 50%
> > > > The UI has opened up 4 offices in China to recruit students. Why? The
> UI
> > > > is a land grant college. They should take care of their base first.
> > > > Recruit in China when times are better.
> > > > Other ways to save money. Review all government agencies for ways
> they
> > > > can be reduced. All agencies should come with a sunset. If after a
> set
> > > > period of time they would need to be re-evaluated and authorised. If
> the
> > > > wern't they would go out of existence. All lawmakers should be on the
> same
> > > > benefits that they legislate for the rest of us.
> > > > All cuts in pay or personnel should start at the top. The UI like
> most
> > > > other government agencies have greatly expanded at the administrative
> > > > level. That is where the cuts should start. Diversity is important,
> but
> > > > the UI does nt need in excess of 20 people to handle it. There should
> be
> > > > on director and an assistant. They can then work with someone in the
> > > > individual departments or colleges.
> > > > If Administrators were trimmed back at the Federal, State and
> University
> > > > level more programs and jobs could be save on balance.
> > > > Help the handicapped fine jobs. When I was with Carnation and Manna
> Pro
> > > > our Small World line of Wild bird seeds were packaged by handicapped
> > > > people.
> > > > These are only a few things that can be done to balance the budget
> and at
> > > > the same time save valuable programs such as aid for the mentally
> ill.
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:37:09 -0800
> > From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Vision2020] picture non-political
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <f8e72a889022aa6284529e8b24b40737 at turbonet.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f8e72a889022aa6284529e8b24b40737@turbonet.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Maynard Fosberg's horse,( Tucker) made the front page of today's Daily
> News.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:18:13 -0800
> > From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <201102021418.14015.kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=201102021418.14015.kmmos1@frontier.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Temperature (Fahrenheit):
> > Bellevue, WA: 52.3; Moscow, ID: 28.8
> > Updated: 1:21 PM PST on February 02, 2011
> >
> > Elevation above mean sea level (feet):
> > Bellevue, WA: 300; Moscow, ID: 2650
> >
> > Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:17:58 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> > To: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>>,
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <776999.87710.qm at web46114.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=776999.87710.qm@web46114.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > So does a large body of water...
> >
> > Ron Force
> > Moscow Idaho USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> > Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110202/d1b89f00/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:24 -0800
> > From: Carl Westberg <idahovandal1 at live.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=idahovandal1@live.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > Message-ID: <SNT105-W303447164AAFC4DE134796E9E40 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > So Paradise Creek doesn't count? I mean there are times you can almost
> see water in it.
> >
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:17:58 -0800
> > From: rforce2003 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> > To: kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>;
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> >
> >
> >
> > So does a large body of water...
> > Ron Force
> > Moscow Idaho USA
> >
> >
> >
> > Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110202/40af6f4e/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:33 -0800 (PST)
> > From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Senate Democrats Block GOP Bid to Repeal Health
> > Care Law
> > To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > Message-ID: <0295caa7e15c1a13f71f08c1785996e3.squirrel at secure.fsr.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=0295caa7e15c1a13f71f08c1785996e3.squirrel@secure.fsr.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Courtesy of CNN at:
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/02/senate.health.care/index.html
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Senate Democrats block GOP bid to repeal health care law
> > Washington (CNN) -- Senate Democrats on Wednesday blocked a Republican
> > effort to repeal the health care reform bill passed last year.
> >
> > The 51-47 vote, along party lines, meant the procedural motion failed to
> > get the necessary 60 votes to pass.
> >
> > The Republican-controlled House of Representatives has passed a bill to
> > repeal the health care overhaul. However, Democrats used their majority
> in
> > the Senate to block a similar measure proposed by the Republican minority
> > as an amendment to another bill.
> >
> > Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said Tuesday he wanted to
> get
> > the repeal effort "out of the system" so the Senate could move ahead with
> > other business, while his Republican counterpart said his party was
> > fulfilling an obligation to voters from last year's congressional
> > elections.
> >
> > "It would be a dereliction of duty if Republicans didn't fight for
> > repeal," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky. "We
> made
> > a promise to our constituents that we would vote to repeal this bill on
> > their behalf. And that's just what we intend to do."
> >
> > Wednesday's vote amounted to a push by Republicans to get Democratic
> > opposition to a full repeal on the record in the form of votes against
> the
> > amendment. Led by President Barack Obama, Democrats concede the health
> > care overhaul can be improved, but they oppose rolling back benefits for
> > consumers against health insurance industry practices such as denying
> > coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
> >
> > "We're not going to go back and fight the battles of the last two years,"
> > White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Wednesday. "We're not going
> > to go backward. We're going to move forward."
> >
> > Overall, the Republicans oppose the increased government role in
> > regulating health care, claiming it will impinge on individuals' right to
> > choose care options in the future. Democrats say the law enacted last
> year
> > will better control skyrocketing health care costs and expand coverage to
> > millions of people currently lacking health insurance.
> >
> > The specific motion the Senate voted on Wednesday involved a Democratic
> > challenge to the Republican repeal amendment on the grounds that it would
> > increase the federal deficit. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office
> > has said the health care reform law will lower the deficit, so Democrats
> > argue that repealing it would increase the deficit.
> >
> > By filing a budget point of order against the repeal amendment, Democrats
> > forced Republicans to hold a vote on waiving the point of order to
> > consider the amendment. That required 60 votes in the 100-seat Senate to
> > pass, a threshold out of reach of the Republicans, who hold 47 seats.
> >
> > Using the budget challenge was a way for Democrats to say they voted for
> > fiscal responsibility, while Republicans contend the public will
> > understand that the vote was really against the repeal of health care
> > reform.
> >
> > While a repeal of the entire health care law won't move forward, Senate
> > Democrats joined Republicans in voting for the elimination of a rule,
> > scheduled to take effect in 2012, requiring businesses to issue Form
> 1099s
> > to any individual or corporation from which they buy more than $600 in
> > goods or services in a year. Most liberals and conservatives view the
> rule
> > as an unnecessary burden on private-sector employers.
> >
> > The push for an outright repeal is one of several strategies currently
> > being pursued by the GOP leadership in order to undermine support for the
> > law. Senate Republicans also introduced legislation Tuesday that would
> > allow states to opt out of key provisions of the new health care law.
> >
> > Specifically, the bill would allow state governments to opt out of the
> > so-called "individual mandate" requiring everyone to obtain health care
> > coverage by 2014 or face penalties. It would also allow states to ignore
> > new mandates regarding employer-based coverage, insurance benefits and an
> > expansion of Medicaid.
> >
> > The motion was introduced one day after a federal judge in Florida issued
> > a sweeping ruling against the law, siding with 26 states that had
> > challenged the measure and setting up a likely Supreme Court challenge in
> > the months ahead.
> >
> > A federal judge in eastern Virginia has also found the health care law
> > unconstitutional, while two other federal judges, one in western Virginia
> > and one in Michigan, have ruled the opposite. Twelve other federal judges
> > have dismissed challenges to the law, according to the White House
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> > "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
> change
> > and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> >
> > - Unknown
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> >
> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 15
> > ******************************************
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
>
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