[Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut

Sun Feb 6 07:09:45 PST 2011

Joe,

If you got a better idea, or any idea at all, let's hear it? I don't hear anything other than your criticism of what others are doing without offering any solutions. Who would you cut?

My solution may not be to your liking because you either believe every government funded job is legitimate or because you reject any plan that isn't a 1500 page detailed proposal, or maybe you just reject any idea that isn't your own or is mine. 
.
Do you have any solution other than taxing the populace out of three meals a day and a roof over their bed?

I do disagree that your job is not high paying however, as the average family income in Latah County is less than $26,000 a year, lower if you count just Moscow which includes UI students as a higher percentage of the population. So unless you make less than $39,000 a year you are paid significantly higher than the average family in Latah (50% more)..

It is your complaining, not mine, that will lead to defunded public universities because you are the one publicly and vehemently disagreeing with their decisions and not using a private business model. 

Donovan Arnold

--- On Fri, 2/4/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 11:49 AM

If it helps, I do not have a job with high pay, nor a job with low stability. I'm not complaining because I know that WSU will not go for a 5% general cut because it is a bad idea.

"There is a lot of bogus jobs" is unhelpful, tea party rhetoric. Get specific. And saying there are "overpaid administrators" is not very specific either. Nor is saying we should "the majority of administrators and gave the duties to faculty and staff." I already have a job! Are you suggesting I should do that AND the job the administrators do? I'm not sure you have a clue what they do but given that state funding has dropped 20% or so in the last few years, ONE of those jobs is running around the state, trying to find money. The real danger of the types of proposals that you are suggesting is that they will lead to the eventual privatization of universities. If we keep on this path, state universities will come to the conclusion that it will be easier to go on their own and ultimately the costs will be passed along to the students.

This is really a bad plan.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

 Joe,

I'm not the one complaining, you are. I am content with my profession. I chose a profession with low pay and high stability, and you chose a job with high pay and low stability. 

There is a lot of bogus jobs and overpaid administrators in education, as there is in all levels of government. There are lots of highly funded programs that don't produce jobs or contribute much to society in proportion to there public funding. 

Your are absolutely right that the educational departments at Universities use about 90% of the budget for salaries. However, Universtities have many departments that are not education related and use a lot of  taxpayer resoursces. 

You ask for waste, here is a list; The University would be fine if it axed the majority of administrators and gave the duties to faculty and staff. It would have been fine without a Student Rec Center, or the T1 system. And it doesn't need out of area overpriced administrators whom leave every other year. It doesn't need a Student Health Care Center, it doesn't need two football feilds, or three golf courses. It doesn't need a 1/2 dozen Vice Presidents. It doesn't need water fountains that freeze and break every winter. It doesn't need a seperate police force. It doesn't need professional overpriced interior decorators either. And it certainly doesn't need a half empty 5 level library. 

Every business cuts staff and salaries, it is how they stay in business. I have not worked at a private organization that did not and stayed in business. I grew up in a business family. The last three jobs I had have cut staff and wages. Micron cut wages, and it has now rebound. If it hadn't cut those wages, laid staff off it would have cost more jobs in the long run as it would have shut down. 

I would fund education based on future market demands. If society needs 100 new engineers and two new basket weavers, it would fund for 100 new engineers and two new basket weavers, not the other way around and wonder why the economy isn't running smoothly.

Education is suffering because the tax dollars are not there because people are not trained in the correct professions. There are plenty of jobs out there, and plenty of unemployed. The problem is that the unemployed are not trained to do the jobs that are needed to get the economy going again. 

Future market based job demand is the way to determine which departments grow or shrink. Otherwise you run out of money and need to cut everyone's wages by 5% of more.

Donovan Arnold 

--- On Thu, 2/3/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 5% percent pay cut
To: "Darrell Keim" <keim153 at gmail.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:32 PM

Darrell, Donovan, and Kai:

THANK YOU, Darrell! But I'm aware that I'm not alone, and nor do I think that I have it bad or even worse than others (Kai is a good -- or maybe bad -- example of someone who has suffered more than I'm likely to suffer). I have more than a few relatives who have been forced into early retirement, as well.

I was speaking about private industry when I made the claim that no one makes across the board cuts. Government is like education: not a good model for examples of how to run a business. Donovan says "This sort of thing happens all the time in the business world" but I don't recall the last time McDonald's or IBM cut EVERYONE's wages 5%. I don't see this as a viable business strategy and if we're going to adopt a business model for higher ed (not something I agree with, but that's another issue), then let's go all the way. Let's act like a REAL business and make hard choices. Perhaps I'm missing something but I really can't think of many examples where PRIVATE industries cut salaries 5% across the board. Maybe Donovan or whomever can offer an example or two or three.

Donovan also says: "The problem is not that people don't want to spend money on education, or that enough is not being spent, it is that it is being misappropriated and not effectively used as it could be."

This is propaganda bullshit, honestly. Give 5 examples of misappropriated use of funding at UI or WSU. The misconception is that there is a lot of waste, a lot of fat to be cut in higher ed. In the philosophy department at WSU, salary is over 90% of the overall budget. The rest is our copy machine, phones, etc. We've been doing budget exercises for years now and, trust me, the fat has been cut. The only way to cut funding further in higher ed is to cut salaries (either across the board or by firing specific people). That is it. When you talk about cutting education, you are talking about cutting the salaries of the majority of people in this region.

Try to be part of the solution, Donovan, instead of just complaining about the problems. Please tell us, explicitly, which people you would fire in order to get the budget to your liking. Which departments would you cut? Which services? Which staff? These are difficult decisions and I'm glad I don't have to make them. You seem to be under the delusion that our problems are due to mismanagement. They are not. They are due to either (a) a bureaucratic system that has more folks than they need (in which case you should tell us whom to get rid of) or (b) a public that is unaware of the costs of adequate education and/or unwilling to pay for it.

Kai writes: "I get really tired of public.sector employees whining about pay cuts and furloughs while private sector employees get hammered. Where the hell do public employees think the money for their paychecks comes from? The magic funding fairy?"

I'm not whining about anything. I'm just saying across the board cuts and furloughs are a bad idea. You want to fire 5% of the work force? Do it. Don't hide the fact that you want to pay less for education (yet expect to get the same) by spreading the pain. Getting rid of 5% of the work force is a BETTER idea than cutting 5% across the board. Again, show me a viable private business that adopts this model and I'll change my tune. 

And for the record, EVERYONE's salary comes from others. I agree that others are ultimately paying my salary but this is true of EVERYONE. We're all paying each other's salary.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:

Kai:  I hated to see that happen to you.  Hated it.  I really enjoyed The Latah Eagle, and feel a void in local news since it closed. 

Joe:  Boy do I agree with your comments on education.  Across the board is not the way to go.  I can't speak to other schools, but WSU really seems top heavy.  The administrators and athletics take up huge budget chunks, and I question the value.

There are examples outside of education where the types of cuts you describe happen.  I can't think of examples in private industry, but I can think of examples in gov't.  For instance, last year the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare took huge cuts.  It started with an across the board furlough.  It ended with the department being decimated by budget cuts.  While I feel your pain in education, realize you are not totally alone in being singled out for these types of cuts. 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Kai! 

But there is no way that an across the board cut is the way to go. It is a bad idea. If someone can show me examples of businesses where this kind of approach happens with the regularity it is used to "solve" problems in education I might change my mind. But it is my impression that in most cases in the cold, hard, real world when they need to save 5%, people get fired. The fact is folks no longer value education. The public seems unwilling to pay for higher education to the extent that they once did. The 5% cut suggests that the answer to this is that we (those of us in higher education) do what we've been doing and take a pay cut. The assumption is that even though the folks at UI have not received a raise in over 5 years and have accepted a furlough, that they should now accept a 5% pay cut and everything will continue as it once did, doing more with less. Again, I have a hard time thinking of examples outside of education where this kind of thing
 happens. It strikes me as a kind of dream world.

Fire people, make class sizes larger than they already are, and make professors less available and accessible to the students than they were when you and I were in school. Make it hurt. See what you get. Show the public the kind of education system that they are willing to pay for. If they want something more -- more teachers, more employees, more jobs -- they should pay for it.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Kai Eiselein <fotopro63 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Chris, let me get this straight.
You took a demotion to stay employed.
You are facing a 5% pay cut.
You still have a job.
Try this:
Work for years to purchase a business in an industry you love.
You finally purchase the business of your dreams.
The economy tanks two months after you purchase said business.
Eleven months later you close the doors after watching your dreams turn to dust in front of your eyes.
You walk away unemployed, $100K in debt with nothing to show for it and begin trying to figure out how to get yourself out of this hole.

And you are worried about 5 effin percent.
Three words: Kiss my a$$

> From: vision2020-request at moscow.com
> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 15
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:33 -0800
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: A proposal to balance the budget (lfalen)
> 2. picture non-political (lfalen)
> 3. Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Kenneth Marcy)
> 4. Re: Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Ron Force)
> 5. Re: Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F (Carl Westberg)
> 6. Senate Democrats Block GOP Bid to Repeal Health Care Law
> (Tom Hansen)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:01:53 -0800
> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A proposal to balance the budget
> To: bear at moscow.com
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <f4750eea6e468415dd48b8b1161cc901 at turbonet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> 
> My wife also took a furlough last year and offered to take one again this year. She does not have any option. If her boss does not have a grant, she is cut.
> Roger
> 
> ----Original message-----
> From: bear at moscow.com
> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:50:22 -0800
> To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A proposal to balance the budget
> 
> > 
> > Roger,
> > 
> > As someone who has had to face the cuts imposed by CALS, I find your
> > suggestions a but short sighted. I did not have science or research in my
> > title and have over 8 years of seniority but I still was laid off by the
> > College and to retain employment and benefits was forced to take a
> > demotion. I was also one of the few people in CALS that had to take
> > furlough days last year. Yet you suggest I should be willing and even
> > happy to accept a 5% cut! While I feel for the people who now have to be
> > paid via grant funding via the PI, the fact remains that is an option for
> > them. Why shouldn't the extension offices as state and federal employees
> > take the same cuts that have been imposed by the Gov. as the on campus
> > departments and offices have had to absorb?
> > 
> > All I am saying is that the problem is more complex than everyone take a
> > 5% cut across the board.
> > 
> > Chris Price
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Here are some proposals to balance Federal, State and University Budgets
> > > .
> > > First I would take care of the mentally ill, the disabled and our
> > > veterans.
> > > All government employees (state and Federal) should take a 5% pay cut. The
> > > private sector has taken cuts(except for Wall Street and a few others).
> > > This should start with all Federal legislators. State legislators are not
> > > paid that much in Idaho.
> > > The University could easily balance their budget by doing so. Instead they
> > > are making cuts at the low end. Cals is making the cuts on those staff
> > > that have science or research in their title. This is a highly arbitrary
> > > way to do it and is not based on merit or seniority. The PI that they
> > > work for will have to come up with half their salary from other sources
> > > such as grants. My wife has been cut to 87.5%. She is now paid for 7 hours
> > > but still puts in about 12 hours a day. In june she will probably be cut
> > > to half time. This means that her benefits will no longer be picked up by
> > > the University. One can not afford to work for that, She has worked for
> > > the UI for over 40 years. She has 3 more years to go before reaching SS
> > > retirement age.
> > > An across the board 5% cut would not hurt anyone that much and it would
> > > easier to save the desired dollars than cutting some staff by 80 or 50%
> > > The UI has opened up 4 offices in China to recruit students. Why? The UI
> > > is a land grant college. They should take care of their base first.
> > > Recruit in China when times are better.
> > > Other ways to save money. Review all government agencies for ways they
> > > can be reduced. All agencies should come with a sunset. If after a set
> > > period of time they would need to be re-evaluated and authorised. If the
> > > wern't they would go out of existence. All lawmakers should be on the same
> > > benefits that they legislate for the rest of us.
> > > All cuts in pay or personnel should start at the top. The UI like most
> > > other government agencies have greatly expanded at the administrative
> > > level. That is where the cuts should start. Diversity is important, but
> > > the UI does nt need in excess of 20 people to handle it. There should be
> > > on director and an assistant. They can then work with someone in the
> > > individual departments or colleges.
> > > If Administrators were trimmed back at the Federal, State and University
> > > level more programs and jobs could be save on balance.
> > > Help the handicapped fine jobs. When I was with Carnation and Manna Pro
> > > our Small World line of Wild bird seeds were packaged by handicapped
> > > people.
> > > These are only a few things that can be done to balance the budget and at
> > > the same time save valuable programs such as aid for the mentally ill.
> > > Roger
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:37:09 -0800
> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Subject: [Vision2020] picture non-political
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <f8e72a889022aa6284529e8b24b40737 at turbonet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Maynard Fosberg's horse,( Tucker) made the front page of today's Daily News.
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:18:13 -0800
> From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <201102021418.14015.kmmos1 at frontier.com>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Temperature (Fahrenheit):
> Bellevue, WA: 52.3; Moscow, ID: 28.8
> Updated: 1:21 PM PST on February 02, 2011
> 
> Elevation above mean sea level (feet):
> Bellevue, WA: 300; Moscow, ID: 2650
> 
> Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> 
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:17:58 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> To: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <776999.87710.qm at web46114.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> So does a large body of water...
> 
> Ron Force
> Moscow Idaho USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> 
> Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> 
> 
> Ken
> 
> =
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:24 -0800
> From: Carl Westberg <idahovandal1 at live.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Message-ID: <SNT105-W303447164AAFC4DE134796E9E40 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> So Paradise Creek doesn't count? I mean there are times you can almost see water in it.
> 
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:17:58 -0800
> From: rforce2003 at yahoo.com
> To: kmmos1 at frontier.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bellevue, WA: 52.3 F; Moscow, ID: 28.8 F
> 
> 
> 
> So does a large body of water...
> Ron Force
> Moscow Idaho USA
> 
> 
> 
> Atmospheric blanket assists temperature stability.
> 
> 
> Ken
> 
> =
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
> http://www.fsr.net 
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:54:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Senate Democrats Block GOP Bid to Repeal Health
> Care Law
> To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Message-ID: <0295caa7e15c1a13f71f08c1785996e3.squirrel at secure.fsr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Courtesy of CNN at:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/02/senate.health.care/index.html
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Senate Democrats block GOP bid to repeal health care law
> Washington (CNN) -- Senate Democrats on Wednesday blocked a Republican
> effort to repeal the health care reform bill passed last year.
> 
> The 51-47 vote, along party lines, meant the procedural motion failed to
> get the necessary 60 votes to pass.
> 
> The Republican-controlled House of Representatives has passed a bill to
> repeal the health care overhaul. However, Democrats used their majority in
> the Senate to block a similar measure proposed by the Republican minority
> as an amendment to another bill.
> 
> Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said Tuesday he wanted to get
> the repeal effort "out of the system" so the Senate could move ahead with
> other business, while his Republican counterpart said his party was
> fulfilling an obligation to voters from last year's congressional
> elections.
> 
> "It would be a dereliction of duty if Republicans didn't fight for
> repeal," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky. "We made
> a promise to our constituents that we would vote to repeal this bill on
> their behalf. And that's just what we intend to do."
> 
> Wednesday's vote amounted to a push by Republicans to get Democratic
> opposition to a full repeal on the record in the form of votes against the
> amendment. Led by President Barack Obama, Democrats concede the health
> care overhaul can be improved, but they oppose rolling back benefits for
> consumers against health insurance industry practices such as denying
> coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
> 
> "We're not going to go back and fight the battles of the last two years,"
> White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Wednesday. "We're not going
> to go backward. We're going to move forward."
> 
> Overall, the Republicans oppose the increased government role in
> regulating health care, claiming it will impinge on individuals' right to
> choose care options in the future. Democrats say the law enacted last year
> will better control skyrocketing health care costs and expand coverage to
> millions of people currently lacking health insurance.
> 
> The specific motion the Senate voted on Wednesday involved a Democratic
> challenge to the Republican repeal amendment on the grounds that it would
> increase the federal deficit. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office
> has said the health care reform law will lower the deficit, so Democrats
> argue that repealing it would increase the deficit.
> 
> By filing a budget point of order against the repeal amendment, Democrats
> forced Republicans to hold a vote on waiving the point of order to
> consider the amendment. That required 60 votes in the 100-seat Senate to
> pass, a threshold out of reach of the Republicans, who hold 47 seats.
> 
> Using the budget challenge was a way for Democrats to say they voted for
> fiscal responsibility, while Republicans contend the public will
> understand that the vote was really against the repeal of health care
> reform.
> 
> While a repeal of the entire health care law won't move forward, Senate
> Democrats joined Republicans in voting for the elimination of a rule,
> scheduled to take effect in 2012, requiring businesses to issue Form 1099s
> to any individual or corporation from which they buy more than $600 in
> goods or services in a year. Most liberals and conservatives view the rule
> as an unnecessary burden on private-sector employers.
> 
> The push for an outright repeal is one of several strategies currently
> being pursued by the GOP leadership in order to undermine support for the
> law. Senate Republicans also introduced legislation Tuesday that would
> allow states to opt out of key provisions of the new health care law.
> 
> Specifically, the bill would allow state governments to opt out of the
> so-called "individual mandate" requiring everyone to obtain health care
> coverage by 2014 or face penalties. It would also allow states to ignore
> new mandates regarding employer-based coverage, insurance benefits and an
> expansion of Medicaid.
> 
> The motion was introduced one day after a federal judge in Florida issued
> a sweeping ruling against the law, siding with 26 states that had
> challenged the measure and setting up a likely Supreme Court challenge in
> the months ahead.
> 
> A federal judge in eastern Virginia has also found the health care law
> unconstitutional, while two other federal judges, one in western Virginia
> and one in Michigan, have ruled the opposite. Twelve other federal judges
> have dismissed challenges to the law, according to the White House
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> 
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> 
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> 
> - Unknown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
> http://www.fsr.net 
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> 
> End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 15
> ******************************************

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