[Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

Thu Dec 1 01:43:44 PST 2011

Jay,

I am not debating if the court ruled guilty or not guilty. I am simply stating that your stated definition of adultery doesn't meet the court's definition. If it did, then Clinton could not be found guilty. I agree, a ruling of gulity or not guilty does not make something true or untrue, it is just the ruling. Many times people not guilty are found guilty and the opposite is true as well. 

In this 1/7000000000 of the world's opinion;

 I disagree that in our current legal system someone can take the Fifth Amendment in any meaningful way. To do so is admission of guilt of the question in the minds of many jury members. The only true protection of not committing perjury or self incrimination is to have a judge not allow unfair or irrelevant questions of a person on the stand. The purpose of questioning is to get to the relevant facts of the case, not to indulge themselves and the media with intimate details of an individual's personal life. This is misuse of the legal system and abuse of the person on the stand. 

I think our legal system needs to be as protective as when people apply for jobs. An employer cannot ask certain questions like,how many children she has, if she plans on having any more, what her religion, age, race, or what are the specifics of a disability. To plead the 5th would be pointless. The only fair way is to not allow certain types of questions in the first place. 

Donovan Arnold

________________________________
 From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

“Your answer also concluded to the fact that Clinton didn't lie about adultery”

It did?  Please show me where I made that connection.  

Clinton is guilty of perjury.  That part is fact.  Whether or not you believe that he truly committed the act (or a sufficient enough act),  is a different topic of discussion, as is the discussion to the ethics of scandal.  

(Just like OJ Simpson is not-guilty of his felony conviction…. it’s a *fact* he is not-guilty because a jury found him not-guilty… even though many folks assume that he still committed the crime).  

Clinton was found guilty.  He was impeached.  This is fact.  We can debate about the wiggle-words, what constitutes “sexual relations”, and the “definition of is” until the cows come home… but history has recorded that Clinton was found guilty of perjury.

If you want to debate about the *ethics* behind the scandal, that’s a much different discussion than the *legality* behind the scandal.

(And BTW:  no judge can “require” someone to choose between self-incrimination and perjury… part of the 5th Amendment to the Constitution says you can’t force you to testify against yourself.  Your options are to tell the truth, to plead the 5th, or to lie….   perjury is the RESULT of the choice you make, not one of the choices itself… (and I’m about ½ a stone’s throw from hitting the upper boundaries of my legal expertise… perhaps someone else heavy on the legal side of things can weigh in).

Jay

From:Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:38 AM
To: Jay Borden; Saundra Lund; Tom Hansen; Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

Jay,

I know what I asked you. Irrelevant. Your answer also concluded to the fact that Clinton didn't lie about adultery. 

I don't agree with Clinton's answer as being totally truthful. But I think a judge that requires someone to choose between self incrimination and a perjury charge has got a bad idea of what justice and fair trial is all about.  The relationship with an intern has no relevance to the case and was asked only to play "gotta questions" for political reasons. 

Donovan Arnold

From:Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:36 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

I’m sure we can all rehash stuff from the 90’s…

… but I’ll only rehash what I wrote just a few emails ago:

“I’m not defending any of these clowns”.  

If you want to talk *ethics*, they all lose.  (Gingrich had a string of affairs (even though he seemed to have a history of marrying each mistress and dumping the current wife…) and Lewinsky was the last in a string of rompings (Jones and Flowers). 

If you want to talk *legality*, Clinton was guilty of perjury, since he lied under oath.  Gingrich did not lie under oath… therefore he was not guilty of perjury.

Jay

From:Saundra Lund [mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:03 PM
To: Jay Borden; 'Donovan Arnold'; 'Tom Hansen'; 'Moscow Vision 2020'
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

Since you can rehash stuff from the 90s, how about rehashing the details of how Gingrich proved himself – time & again – to have the ethics & morals of a piece of crap?

After all, it’s certainly not Bill Clinton that’s currently trying to sell himself as presidential material the way Nasty Newt is.

Saundra

From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Jay Borden
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:51 PM
To: Donovan Arnold; Tom Hansen; Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

Well, I’m not really defending any of these clowns…

… but Gingrich lied while Clinton was guilty of perjury.   Clinton wasn’t damned because of the affair, he was damned because he lied under oath.

But… I’m just dredging up the same arguments that happened back in the 90’s.

Jay

From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:41 PM
To: Tom Hansen; Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations

I think it is ironic that support shifted from Cain to Gingrich after it was released by the press that Cain had several affairs when Gingrich also had affairs. Worse, Gingrich had an affair and left his wife while she was in the hospital. Gingrich also tried to impeach Clinton for lying about his affair while lying about his own. 

Donovan Arnold

From:Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
To: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Herman Cain's Extra-Marital Relations
Courtesy of the Borowitz Report at:

http://www.borowitzreport.com

------------------------------
Poll: 28% Think Cain Had Affair; 28% Don’t Think Cain Had Affair; 44% Having Affair with Cain Right Now
Millions of Exes Could Spell Trouble for Candidate 
MINNEAPOLIS – In a new poll of likely GOP voters, 28% think Herman Cain had an extramarital affair, 28% do not think he had an affair, and 44% are having an affair with Herman Cain right now.

Of the voters currently having sex with Mr. Cain, 52% called the relationship “special,” 38% called it “inappropriate,” and 10% agreed with the statement “I know I am Herman’s soul mate and someday we’ll be together.”

According to Davis Logsdon, who conducted the poll for the University of Minnesota’s Opinion Research Institute, the numbers could spell trouble for the former pizza executive: “There is no precedent for a successful White House run by a man with over ten million exes.”

In an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer today, Mr. Cain seemed to brush off the latest development, saying, “Now you know why I got your name wrong, Blitz – I have a lot of names to keep straight in my head.”

Mr. Cain added, "My message to the American people remains the same, and that message is, 'I told you not to call me here.'"

But later in the day Mr. Cain got a got a harsh scolding from Republican frontrunner Newt Gingrich: “If Herman is in fact having sex with millions of Americans, he needs to do the right thing and marry them.”
------------------------------
Seeyaround town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"
- Unknown
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