[Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes

Thu Jan 14 12:59:54 PST 2010

Nick
If I were writing an article for a professional journal or even a magazine article, I would research every thing thoroughly with footnotes.  I have nether the time or the inclination to do so for vision2020. You apparently have more time than I do. If you want to claim victory on that account be my guest. Over the long haul no county with a state controlled economy has prospered as well as those where most of the businesses  are in the hands of the private sector. Witness eastern Europe before and after communism. Aside from that it is amoral for the state to steal from those that have earned it and give it thos that sit on their ass. I do not agree with Oliver Wendel Homes Jr. who said that morality is not absolute but changes as society changes. Donovan is wrong in his statements. At one time he may have had a point. There were in the past unfair labour practices. Thanks to Sammual Gompers and other that has changed. Teddy Roosevelt broke up the large trusts such as Standa!
 rd Oil.
Most business do not operate as a monopoly and are relatively fair, do in part the federal regulation.We do not need any more of it. Other than speculators that skew the stock market, most of the economy runs fine. They and such federal entitles as fanny and freddy are responsible for the mess we are in today. There is plenty of evidence for this, but I am not going to take the time to document it for you. You can do that yourself by reading Thomas Sewell and others. Instead I am sure that you will rely on the Keynesian  Economists that have been proven wrong time and again. 
Society should take care of those that legitimately can not provide for themselves. but do not have an obligation to support the ablebodied. My son lost his job a few yeas ago. He had a lot of payments to make. He found a job as a janitor for Lazy J in Jerome. His wife went to work on the assembly line for Spear. This was not easy for her since she has Fibro myalgia. He is now a production supervisor for McCains and she is The extension Educator for Lincoln County.My ex son in law is a hypochondriac. When he does work he repeatedly takes of because he does not feel good or his back hurts. But he always feels good enough to hunt or fish. He is very skilled at a lot of things but usually does not work. He could have had a job driving truck for McGregors, but told them he had to have time off in hunting session. That is their busy time. He naturally did not get the job.  He did work for Greg Lennehan, but quit. Greg who put up with him being a hypochondriac because of his many !
 skills
offered to rehire him. I do not feel sorry for him. My oldest daughter works for the Idaho State Soils Commission. It is being eliminated and what they do will be handled by the State Agricultural Department. She may or may not have a job.They should eliminate the administrators in Boise and keep those that do the work, but that is not guaranteed. She will take what ever job she can find, be it at a convenience mart or washing dishes in restaurant. This may not be ease as she has diabetes and (like me) arthritis. Again it is amoral to take from those that work and give it to those that won't. conservatives as a whole are more generous than those like Joe Biden or the tax cheat  secretary of The Treasury, that want government to be the nanny. Bill Gates should be able to decide for himself where his money goes.

You criticize me for not providing documentation, but you just state that some areas with  tight gun control have low crime, with out giving any documentation. How is that any different that what I did? Take El Paso and Juerez. Mexico has tight gun control laws but crime and murder are rampant in Juerez. Across the river in El Paso where there is little gun control there is substantially less crime. I am sure you will find other explanations for this. Even so the government should not be controlling what law abiding citizens do. but go after the criminals. In England a women was being harassed by teenagers out side her window. She held up a knife in the window. the police reprimanded her, not the teenagers. I am glad I live in Idaho where one can still defend himself. Aside from what effect gun control has on crime, the right to self defense is natural law. Any government that denies the right of a citizen to self defense is out of bounds.
Roger

-----Original message-----
From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:56:01 -0800
To: vision2020 at moscow.com,  lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes

> Hi Roger,
> 
> Post after post you demonstrate that you don't know how to carry on an argument.  I offer solid data from Europe on taxes and the economy and you respond that my comparisons are not valid.  
> 
> You have to give reasons why they are not valid.  You don't win any points by simply saying that you don't accept my arguments.  You had an equally unsatisfactory response to my response that many countries have tough gun control and very low crime rates.
> 
> American businesses set up on right-to-work states so that they will not have to people living wages, where their employees will not get decent health care, and where they will have to commute long distances because there is no public transportation. California will come back as soon as it solves its basic problem: citizen's initiatives that create chronic political instability.
> 
> Thanks for the dialogue,
> 
> Nick
> ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote: 
> > Nick
> > I don't think that your comparisons are valid. Can you tell me just why businesses are leaving california and going to Texas.
> > I accidently deleted your last post before I read it.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:47:49 -0800
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com,  lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> > 
> > > Hi Roger,
> > > 
> > > You are spouting myths. High personal taxation simply does not stifle business expansion.  Some European welfare states, with the highest progressive rates in the world, always rank among the top ten competitive economies in the world.
> > > 
> > > Denmark has the highest tax rates in the world and The Economist has rated it as the most business friendly, as well as the least corrupt, nation in the world. 
> > > 
> > > Some of the lowest unemployment rates are now found in countries such as Denmark (4.2%), Switzerland (4.1%), Norway (3.1%), Austria (4.8%), and the Netherlands (5.2%) where government money (in Denmark 20 times more per capita than the U.S.) has been poured into job training and creation.
> > > 
> > > Finally, GDP per capita is much higher than in Europe than in the U.S. These economies are productive even though most of their workers take 5 to 6 week vacations.
> > > 
> > > Reagan Revolution has simply failed to give American workers the fruits of their labors.  From 1950-1980 economic growth was much higher with high progressive income tax rates and 30 percent union membership (as opposed to 7 percent now).
> > > 
> > > "No new taxes" has left our infrastructure crumbling, our education and social help institutions horribly underfunded, and our country is now on the edge of inevitable decline.
> > > 
> > > Just ponder this one shocking fact: the current generation will be less educated than its parents!  Because of penny wise and pound foolish policies (both Democrats and Republicans) we simply will not be able to compete.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the dialogue,
> > > 
> > > Nick
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of lfalen
> > > Sent: Tue 1/12/2010 11:16 AM
> > > To: nickgier at roadrunner.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> > >  
> > > NICK
> > > I don't dispute that the middle class gets hit the hardest on a percentage basis. As a percent of their income though the rich pay more unless (as is frequently the case) they have a lot of exemptions. No one should have to pay 75% of their income in taxes. High taxes stifle business expansion.
> > > Roger
> > > 
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> > > Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:37:11 -0800
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> > > 
> > > > Hi Roger,
> > > > 
> > > > I've meaning to respond to a post of yours some time back, so I'm finally doing it.  You may have seen the article in the Daily News, but if you didn't, the Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy reported that in Washington State, the lowest earners pay (all taxes) 17.3 percent of their income in taxes while the top one percent pay 2.9 percent.  In my "economics" folder I have a note from The Economist that indicated that for all taxes America's rich pay 31 percent vs. 29 percent for everyone else.
> > > > 
> > > > Nick
> > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote: 
> > > > NICK
> > > > I don't dispute that the middle class gets hit the hardest on a percentage basis. As a percent of their income though the rich pay more unless (as is frequently the case) they have a lot of exemptions. No one should have to pay 75% of their income in taxes. High taxes stifle business expansion.
> > > > Roger
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> > > > Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:37:11 -0800
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> > > > 
> > > > > Hi Roger,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I've meaning to respond to a post of yours some time back, so I'm finally doing it.  You may have seen the article in the Daily News, but if you didn't, the Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy reported that in Washington State, the lowest earners pay (all taxes) 17.3 percent of their income in taxes while the top one percent pay 2.9 percent.  In my "economics" folder I have a note from The Economist that indicated that for all taxes America's rich pay 31 percent vs. 29 percent for everyone else.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nick
> > > > > 
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