[Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes

Wed Jan 13 10:04:09 PST 2010

Good Morning:

In his book "Free to Choose" and accompanying TV series Milton Friedman proudly starts with Hong Hong, a city state with fewer people than Denmark.  If the libertarians can use Hong Kong and scale up from there to argue for radical free markets, then there is no reason not to use Denmark to make a case for social democracy.  I could have also chosen Germany (80 million people) or France (64 million) to make the same points.

The homogeneity argument simply does not wash. At one time Denmark was receiving more immigrants and refugees per capita than any other country in the world.  Sweden has accepted over 70,000 Iraqi refugees and now offers language instruction in over 60 languages for the school children of non-Swedes they have allowed to live in their country. (These students are expected of course to learn Swedish and they do.) We would have to invite about 2.4 million Iraqis into our country to match Swedish compassion.

Denmark has all the human problems that we have, and they have been more successful in solving them better than we have.  For example, their teenagers have the same hormones as ours do but their teen pregnancy and abortion rates are far lower than ours. 

In the early 1970s European countries were more dependent on foreign oil than we were, but now, primarily because of fuel taxes that are at least ten times ours, they are much less dependent.

Large or small, these countries have solved basic problems of human civilization much better than libertarian America.  

Thanks for the dialogue,

Nick 

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Wed 1/13/2010 9:07 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com; lfalen; nickgier at roadrunner.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes

Nick and Roger,

Denmark has an excellent economic system, no doubt a world envy. However, Denmark isn't even the size of New York City, and doesn't have the same problems faced as the US. So a comparison of a nation of less than 6 million homogeneous people with a low minor and foreign population to a nation of over 300 million is not realistic. 

Roger says that no person should be taxed more than 75% of their income. I disagree if the taxes are overwhelmingly benifieting the wealthy, or they are causing such a public mess that we must tax them to address the issues and problems they generated.

A manufacting plant that pollutes the air, and only employes people at minimum wage will generate lots of needed tax revenue for education, food stamps, subsidized housing, and to address the pollution to clean up and medical problems they cause. 

When a company pays below livable wages, what they are really doing is shifting part of the worker's compensation to be paid by the taxpayer in government subsides. So the taxpayers are perfectly justified in taking a larger portion of income from those that create such a huge need for public subsidies to be made.

Your Friend,

Donovan Arnold

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> Nick and Roger,
>  
> Denmark has an excellent economic system, no doubt a world envy. However, Denmark isn't even the size of New York City, and doesn't have the same problems faced as the US. So a comparison of a nation of less than 6 million homogeneous people with a low minor and foreign population to a nation of over 300 million is not realistic. 
>  
> Roger says that no person should be taxed more than 75% of their income. I disagree if the taxes are overwhelmingly benifieting the wealthy, or they are causing such a public mess that we must tax them to address the issues and problems they generated.
>  
> A manufacting plant that pollutes the air, and only employes people at minimum wage will generate lots of needed tax revenue for education, food stamps, subsidized housing, and to address the pollution to clean up and medical problems they cause. 
>  
> When a company pays below livable wages, what they are really doing is shifting part of the worker's compensation to be paid by the taxpayer in government subsides. So the taxpayers are perfectly justified in taking a larger portion of income from those that create such a huge need for public subsidies to be made.
>  
> Your Friend,
>  
> Donovan Arnold
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, nickgier at roadrunner.com <nickgier at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: nickgier at roadrunner.com <nickgier at roadrunner.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 7:47 PM
> 
> 
> Hi Roger,
> 
> You are spouting myths. High personal taxation simply does not stifle business expansion.  Some European welfare states, with the highest progressive rates in the world, always rank among the top ten competitive economies in the world.
> 
> Denmark has the highest tax rates in the world and The Economist has rated it as the most business friendly, as well as the least corrupt, nation in the world. 
> 
> Some of the lowest unemployment rates are now found in countries such as Denmark (4.2%), Switzerland (4.1%), Norway (3.1%), Austria (4.8%), and the Netherlands (5.2%) where government money (in Denmark 20 times more per capita than the U.S.) has been poured into job training and creation.
> 
> Finally, GDP per capita is much higher than in Europe than in the U.S. These economies are productive even though most of their workers take 5 to 6 week vacations.
> 
> Reagan Revolution has simply failed to give American workers the fruits of their labors.  From 1950-1980 economic growth was much higher with high progressive income tax rates and 30 percent union membership (as opposed to 7 percent now).
> 
> "No new taxes" has left our infrastructure crumbling, our education and social help institutions horribly underfunded, and our country is now on the edge of inevitable decline.
> 
> Just ponder this one shocking fact: the current generation will be less educated than its parents!  Because of penny wise and pound foolish policies (both Democrats and Republicans) we simply will not be able to compete.
> 
> Thanks for the dialogue,
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of lfalen
> Sent: Tue 1/12/2010 11:16 AM
> To: nickgier at roadrunner.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> 
> NICK
> I don't dispute that the middle class gets hit the hardest on a percentage basis. As a percent of their income though the rich pay more unless (as is frequently the case) they have a lot of exemptions. No one should have to pay 75% of their income in taxes. High taxes stifle business expansion.
> Roger
> 
> -----Original message-----
> From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:37:11 -0800
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> 
> > Hi Roger,
> > 
> > I've meaning to respond to a post of yours some time back, so I'm finally doing it.  You may have seen the article in the Daily News, but if you didn't, the Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy reported that in Washington State, the lowest earners pay (all taxes) 17.3 percent of their income in taxes while the top one percent pay 2.9 percent.  In my "economics" folder I have a note from The Economist that indicated that for all taxes America's rich pay 31 percent vs. 29 percent for everyone else.
> > 
> > Nick
> ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote: 
> > NICK
> > I don't dispute that the middle class gets hit the hardest on a percentage basis. As a percent of their income though the rich pay more unless (as is frequently the case) they have a lot of exemptions. No one should have to pay 75% of their income in taxes. High taxes stifle business expansion.
> > Roger
> > 
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> > Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:37:11 -0800
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Roger: The Rich Don't Pay More Taxes
> > 
> > > Hi Roger,
> > > 
> > > I've meaning to respond to a post of yours some time back, so I'm finally doing it.  You may have seen the article in the Daily News, but if you didn't, the Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy reported that in Washington State, the lowest earners pay (all taxes) 17.3 percent of their income in taxes while the top one percent pay 2.9 percent.  In my "economics" folder I have a note from The Economist that indicated that for all taxes America's rich pay 31 percent vs. 29 percent for everyone else.
> > > 
> > > Nick
> > > 
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