[Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty

Andreas Schou ophite at gmail.com
Sat Feb 20 23:44:02 PST 2010


Donovan --

In short: you believe the government should have cameras in our houses in
order to take pictures of potential illegal activity?

-- ACS

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> I agree that the school needs to inform the students and parents that the
> devices have cameras that monitor the behavior of the user in front of it so
> students know to turn off the computer for privacy while while doing
> personal activities of daily living. Not doing so is a serious violation of
> individual privacy.
>
> But I disagree that schools should allow children, unfettered and
> unsupervised, to use a school computer.
>
> I think it is a good idea to be able to take a snapshot of the user of  a
> computer if they are committing an illegal activity to know who it is, it
> could be the child, the child's father or older brother committing the
> illegal or wrongful activities, or stealing the computer.
> Your Friend,
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 4:20 PM
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > I think the school is at fault for not informing parents and teenagers
> > that their computer usage is being monitored.
> >
>
> It's not their computer usage that is being monitored.  All that would
> take is a program to send application usage statistics back to a server
> somewhere.  We're talking about some school official remotely turning on
> the camera and taking a picture of whatever is in front of it without
> the student being aware that a picture is being taken.  Say, for
> example, when they finish their homework and, without turning off their
> laptop, change their clothes to get ready for hockey practice or
> whatever.   Do you really think it's OK for a school administrator to be
> able to take pictures of the inside of a student's bedroom any time they
> please?  Most people I know won't even enter their child's bedroom
> without knocking first.  They would be outraged to find out that school
> administrators had the ability all along to covertly take pictures at
> any time.
>
> >
> > But yes, common sense here,  I am opposed to children using government
> > computers or any property for building bombs, looking at pornography,
> > drinking, having sex, and smoking pot. Those are illegal and
> > inappropriate activities for children. I would hope to God school
> > officials would care enough to interfere if children were doing those
> > things, and not allow them to defile themselves on the Internet, or
> > other children on the Internet. Or to become victims of online predators.
> >
>
> I think we're talking past each other, here.  They aren't using the
> laptops to build bombs or have sex, the laptop would simply be sitting
> there unused by the student snapping pictures of them doing whatever
> activities the student happened to be engaged in.  Whether that's lying
> down listening to their iPod or torturing squirrels.
>
> So pretend it's not a laptop.  Pretend it's some other device the
> administration gave them, like a trophy or something.  Would you
> complain if you found out that the trophy the school gave your kid had a
> hidden camera in it that would wirelessly send images back to the school
> officials whenever they chose to activate it?  Suppose you chose to
> place the trophy in your own bedroom, unaware that it was a spying
> device.  Would you consider it OK for the school to take pictures, just
> to make sure that your kid is behaving the way the school thinks they
> should?
>
> >
> > Yes, some children have adults watching out for them, but not all of
> > them do. When they become adults, the choice to do those things will
> > be their mistake to make, but as children we have to protect them from
> > online predators and from their own dangerous and misguided behavior.
> >
>
> Who is "we"?  Is it OK for me to hack these computers and take snapshots
> on a regular basis of these kids and send incriminating photos to the
> parents anonymously?  The school officials have no more right to peep
> into the bedrooms of children than I do.
>
> Paul
>
> >
> > Your Friend,
> >
> > Donovan Arnold
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>/*
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >     From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> >
> >     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> >     To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >
> >     Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >
> >     Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 3:43 AM
> >
> >     Donovan Arnold wrote:
> >     > Paul,
> >     >  You are not allowed to tamper with government computers by
> >     downloading or erasing software. If the government gives you a
> >     computer you should only be allowed to use it for which it was
> >     intended, nothing else.
> >     >
> >
> >     Running the computer from CD just means that you are running the
> >     OS on the CD and not the one on the hard drive.  It doesn't
> >     download or erase anything.  What exactly you can or cannot do
> >     with it would depend upon what the contract said that you have to
> >     sign when you agree to borrow it.
> >
> >     >  If these were adults, I would agree peeking at their activities
> >     would be improper. However, children need protection, guidance and
> >     adult supervision. Having said that, they also do need some
> >     privacy as well. Nothing a child does on government owned computer
> >     should fall within what a child should consider private. If they
> >     own their own computer at home, or are an adult, then I agree,
> >     educational staff should not be looking at their activities.
> >     >
> >
> >     Does that include turning on the camera and monitoring them to
> >     make sure that the kids aren't smoking pot, having sex,
> >     masturbating, or building bombs in their own bedrooms?  Because
> >     that's what this is about.
> >
> >     Kids have a parent or other guardian that is supposed to be
> >     teaching them morality and what type of behavior is inappropriate
> >     at home.  The school administrators have no business attempting to
> >     police the kids at their homes.
> >
> >     Personally, I hope these guys get nailed in a big way.  As in
> >     being found guilty of criminal charges, such as wiretapping or
> >     child pornography charges.  That would go a long way towards
> >     setting a precedent for this kind of Big Brother action.  This is
> >     a frighteningly direct step towards the telescreens that were
> >     described in Orwell's 1984 that you couldn't turn off or evade
> >     without being thrown in prison or worse.
> >
> >     Paul
> >
> >     >  Your Friend,
> >     >  Donovan Arnold
> >     >
> >     > --- On *Fri, 2/19/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com
> >>/*
> >     wrote:
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>
> >     >     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> >     >     To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com
> >,
> >     "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> >     >     Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 8:10 PM
> >     >
> >     >     I read about this yesterday.  It's a good reason why the
> >     potential
> >     >     for abuse should outweigh the potential benefits for all such
> >     >     invasive ideas.
> >     >
> >     >     The basic idea was that if a student had their laptop stolen
> and
> >     >     the thief wasn't smart enough to boot it with a live CD and
> >     >     reformat it, the administrators could (after finding out it was
> >     >     stolen) remotely activate the camera and take a picture of the
> >     >     thief.
> >     >     A good idea on paper.  Obviously it turns out that the
> potential
> >     >     for abuse was too high.  Someone probably got the bright
> >     idea that
> >     >     they could find out what sort of "inappropriate behavior" was
> >     >     going on for select troublemakers by using this feature and
> >     >     succumbed to the temptation.  That's assuming this wasn't their
> >     >     main purpose in the first place.
> >     >
> >     >     There are a couple of interesting aspects of this case as
> >     well.     If the "inappropriate behavior" involved nudity, then the
> >     >     administrator or whoever it was that remotely activated this
> >     >     feature could face criminal child pornography charges.  Not to
> >     >     mention that the person might end up taking photos of someone
> in
> >     >     the room that couldn't be construed even remotely as being
> under
> >     >     their "guardianship".
> >     >     The biggest question I have is this: what could possibly be
> >     >     considered "inappropriate behavior" in the student's own
> >     home?     Notice they didn't say anything about illegal behavior,
> just
> >     >     "inappropriate".  Since when do school officials think it's
> >     OK to
> >     >     force their own set of values on kids when they aren't at
> >     school?
> >     >
> >     >     Do any schools around here lend out laptops?  If they do, I'd
> >     >     highly recommend that students used the computer by booting it
> >     >     with an Ubuntu Live CD and not running the OS that came with it
> >     >     (whatever flavor it was) just to avoid this kind of
> >     situation.     That's if the contract doesn't allow you simply to
> >     reformat it and
> >     >     install what you want on it yourself.  Running with a live
> >     CD will
> >     >     not affect the OS that is on it, it just won't be running it so
> >     >     their nifty remote activation software won't work.
> >     >
> >     >     Paul
> >     >
> >     >     --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Kai Eiselein <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow..com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> >     >     wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     > From: Kai Eiselein <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> >     >     > Subject: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> >     >     > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com<http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> >     >     > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 11:50 AM
> >     >     > So, on one hand we have those who
> >     >     > advocate sending teens to the doorstep.
> >     >     > On the other we have educators who think they have the
> >     >     > right to invade the
> >     >     > homes of students.
> >     >     > Both camps are equally disturbing.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > >From AOL News:
> >     >     > School Used Laptops to Spy on Students, Suit Says
> >     >     > By David Knowles
> >     >     >
> >     >     > (Feb. 18) -- A Pennsylvania high school stands accused of
> >     >     > spying on its own
> >     >     > students with the very computers it gave them.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Pennsylvania's Lower Merion School District boasts an
> >     >     > impressive program
> >     >     > that loans nearly 1,800 high school students a laptop with
> >     >     > which to work at
> >     >     > home. Superintendent Christopher McGinley said at the
> >     >     > beginning of the
> >     >     > school year that the program "ensures that all students
> >     >     > have 24/7 access to
> >     >     > school-based resources and the ability to seamlessly work
> >     >     > on projects and
> >     >     > research at school and at home."
> >     >     >
> >     >     > The problem, according to a new lawsuit, is that the
> >     >     > computers gave school
> >     >     > officials the potential of having 24/7 visual contact with
> >     >     > students wherever
> >     >     > they may be, and whatever they may be doing.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > A 10th-grader at Harriton High School in Rosemont, Pa.,
> >     >     > Blake Robbins,
> >     >     > brought his school-issued laptop home with him on Nov. 11.
> >     >     > The next day,
> >     >     > however, he says Harriton's vice principal, Lindy Matsko,
> >     >     > confronted the
> >     >     > student about what she considered inappropriate behavior in
> >     >     > the boy's home.
> >     >     > As evidence, Matsko produced a photograph taken inside
> >     >     > Robbins' home by the
> >     >     > laptop's webcam.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > The boy's father, Michael Robbins, contacted the school
> >     >     > after learning of
> >     >     > the incident. He confirmed that the webcams could be
> >     >     > activated remotely by
> >     >     > school personnel, enabling them to view students in their
> >     >     > homes.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Blake Robbins' parents have filed the lawsuit on behalf of
> >     >     > their son. It
> >     >     > claims that the school district never warmed students that
> >     >     > the webcams could
> >     >     > be used to monitor their actions.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Harriton High School declined to comment on the case,
> >     >     > referring calls to the
> >     >     > Lower Merion School District's public relations manager,
> >     >     > Doug Young.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > "We can categorically state that we are -- and have always
> >     >     > been -- committed
> >     >     > to protecting the privacy of our students," Young told the
> >     >     > Philadelphia
> >     >     > Inquirer. "We have referred this matter to our attorneys
> >     >     > for appropriate
> >     >     > legal action and plan to communicate with parents and
> >     >     > students with more
> >     >     > information as it becomes available."
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Late Thursday, McGinley posted a formal apology to parents
> >     >     > and students on
> >     >     > the district's Web site, attempting to explain the protocol
> >     >     > for activating
> >     >     > the laptops' webcams.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > "District laptops do contain a security feature intended to
> >     >     > track lost,
> >     >     > stolen and missing laptops," McGinley wrote. "The security
> >     >     > feature, which
> >     >     > was disabled today, was installed to help locate a laptop
> >     >     > in the event it
> >     >     > was reported lost, missing or stolen so that the laptop
> >     >     > could be returned to
> >     >     > the student."
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > ----- Original Message -----
> >     >     > From: <vision2020-request at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> >     <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com
> >
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447..mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> >>
> >     >     > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> >     >     > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 11:20 AM
> >     >     > Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 44, Issue 121
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
> >     >     > > vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> >     >     > visit
> >     >     > > http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020
> >     >     > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> >     >     > 'help' to
> >     >     > > vision2020-request at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> >     <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com
> >
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com
> >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >     >     > > vision2020-owner at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com>
> >     <
> http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com>
> >
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com>
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> >     >     > more specific
> >     >     > > than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Today's Topics:
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >   1. Re: One Way to Save the State Lots
> >     >     > and Lots of Money
> >     >     > >      (Donovan Arnold)
> >     >     > >   2. Re: Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> >     >     > Bicycle/Pedestrian Accidents &
> >     >     > >      Code (Donovan Arnold)
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Message: 1
> >     >     > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:15:01 -0800 (PST)
> >     >     > > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >     <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com
> >>
> >     >     > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One Way to Save the State
> >     >     > Lots and Lots of
> >     >     > > Money
> >     >     > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> >     >     > Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >     >
> >        <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net
> >>
> >     >     > > Message-ID: <374708.57433.qm at web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >     <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> >
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703..mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >>
> >     >     > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Marcy PhD,
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Judging from your prior lectures on the V, and limited
> >     >     > original content,
> >     >     > > my posts are not to be read by you, for the sake of
> >     >     > your insanity and
> >     >     > > inability to understand tongue in cheek posts; which
> >     >     > 90% of my posts
> >     >     > > contain (charcter flaw I know).
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > There is nothing more drab and unproductive than a
> >     >     > poster like Marcy,
> >     >     > > PhD,?that simply?lecures endlessly?and parroting
> >     >     > exactly what everyone
> >     >     > > else is saying and thinking with no sense of humor
> >     >     > and/or originality, no
> >     >     > > new points, just volumes of the SSSS (Same Subject
> >     >     > Same S***) piled higher
> >     >     > > and deeper.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Marcy PhD, try?lecturing something new, interesting,
> >     >     > constructive, or
> >     >     > > thought provoking instead of copying and pasting
> >     >     > everyone else's posts and
> >     >     > > putting your name on it.
> >     >     > > Your should exercise?YOUR freedom of speech, not your
> >     >     > neighbors.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Your Friend,
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Donovan Arnold
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon..net<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >     >
> >        <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net
> >>
> >     >     > wrote:
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >     >
> >        <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net
> >>
> >     >     > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One Way to Save the State
> >     >     > Lots and Lots of Money
> >     >     > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >     > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:49 AM
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > On Thursday 18 February 2010 13:51:38 Donovan Arnold
> >     >     > wrote:
> >     >     > >> Not wasting $60 million???
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > First, from whom did those sixty million dollars come?
> >     >     > After the
> >     >     > > recent Risch rush to regressive revenue raising,
> >     >     > changing from richer
> >     >     > > to poorer tax sources, it's likely that those who lost
> >     >     > the most to
> >     >     > > their new taxation also stand to lose the most
> >     >     > economic opportunity
> >     >     > > to their future lack of educational resources
> >     >     > traditionally supplied.
> >     >     > > So, who, exactly, is entitled to judge wastefulness of
> >     >     > these dollars?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > >> Of course,?Donovan, would?think this is a great
> >     >     > idea. Why?
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Perhaps because Donovan's thinking is of a meager and
> >     >     > insubstantial
> >     >     > > sort, insufficiently well-connecting the relevant
> >     >     > relations among the
> >     >     > > parties and facts of the situation? Or maybe Donovan
> >     >     > is in a vocal
> >     >     > > mood, wondering if he can yet again stir the
> >     >     > Vision2020 conversation.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >> Because 16-19 year olds cannot listen to
> >     >     > adults?and already know
> >     >     > >> everything. If you don't believe me, just ask
> >     >     > them. They are the
> >     >     > >> experts on every subject. They already know far
> >     >     > more than their
> >     >     > >> parents, grandparents, and the rest of world,
> >     >     > combined. :P
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Sometimes good communication among parents and
> >     >     > children allows a good
> >     >     > > transition from parental household to the child's
> >     >     > emancipation. Other
> >     >     > > times, not. Comments have been made for generations
> >     >     > through eons,
> >     >     > > from the ancients onward. Some were notable, as this
> >     >     > from Samuel
> >     >     > > Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain):
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so
> >     >     > ignorant I could
> >     >     > > hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I
> >     >     > got to be
> >     >     > > twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man
> >     >     > had learned in
> >     >     > > seven years."
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >> Putting teenagers out on their own, IMHO, would be
> >     >     > the best way of
> >     >     > >> getting them to?learn about the real world, that
> >     >     > they don't know
> >     >     > >> everything, and their parents might not be such
> >     >     > the blundering
> >     >     > >> idiots that survived only on chance and charity
> >     >     > that they thought
> >     >     > >> they were, and might be worth listening to.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Shoving a non-swimming kid into the deep end of a pool
> >     >     > is rude, crude,
> >     >     > > uncouth, and perpetuates the ignorance one wishes
> >     >     > education to erase.
> >     >     > > Putting unprepared teenagers, without their majority
> >     >     > legal rights,
> >     >     > > out into the world is dangerous and risky for kids and
> >     >     > parents alike.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Wouldn't it be great if the kids got swimming lessons,
> >     >     > and the parents
> >     >     > > got parenting lessons? Adult basic education has a
> >     >     > place in society.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >> So, I support on their 17th birthday, putting them
> >     >     > out on the
> >     >     > >> doorstep with a?sack of clothes, a bag of Idaho
> >     >     > grown?potatoes, a
> >     >     > >> condom, and?their Ipod to give them the
> >     >     > opportunity to?show the
> >     >     > >> world how dumb it is and how profoundly
> >     >     > intellectually advanced and
> >     >     > >> gifted they are.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Instead of supporting the better interests of the
> >     >     > children's welfare,
> >     >     > > and better long-term relations among parents and
> >     >     > children a few years
> >     >     > > later, what you are supporting is curmudgeonly
> >     >     > self-entertainment of
> >     >     > > the sort shown in the editorial cartoon of Dick
> >     >     > Cheney, in pajamas
> >     >     > > and bathrobe, sitting in a chair aiming the TV clicker
> >     >     > at the set
> >     >     > > during the winter Olympics, yelling "When is the
> >     >     > "#@$%&^"
> >     >     > > waterboarding competition?" In other words, torture as
> >     >     > entertainment.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > If the practice of turning kids loose for a year
> >     >     > became widespread,
> >     >     > > don't you suppose that some of those kids who didn't
> >     >     > talk with their
> >     >     > > parents might talk with each other? And perhaps find
> >     >     > ways to show
> >     >     > > their displeasure at their ill-treatment? How about
> >     >     > nocturnal
> >     >     > > guerrilla spud-gun attacks through some well-deserving
> >     >     > living room
> >     >     > > windows? Has the Homeland Security Office in your
> >     >     > neighborhood
> >     >     > > considered whether alternative parenting strategies
> >     >     > might prevent
> >     >     > > tuber terrorists expressing their disappointment at
> >     >     > being kicked out
> >     >     > > without so much as a GED to attach to a fast-food job
> >     >     > application?
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >> On their 18th birthday they can return provided
> >     >     > they sign a
> >     >     > >> contract not to do drugs, to shut up until they
> >     >     > are?23, listen to
> >     >     > >> their parents and obey them, show up for school
> >     >     > every day, and
> >     >     > >> study as hard as they can. : )
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Donovan, the market for dysfunctional families appears
> >     >     > well-supplied
> >     >     > > already, so adding highly unlikely, not to say,
> >     >     > fantasy, contractual
> >     >     > > obligations to these situational tragedies is akin to
> >     >     > adding empty
> >     >     > > calories to silly-salads of unlikely mixed
> >     >     > ingredients.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >> Do this and you will get your $60 million worth of
> >     >     > education out of
> >     >     > >> them their senior year.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > The worth of an education is not measured in a year's
> >     >     > performance, but
> >     >     > > rather in a lifetime of achievement.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >> Otherwise, they are largely a waste of time and
> >     >     > you might as well???
> >     >     > >> pay teachers to educate a brick wall, they are at
> >     >     > least better? ???
> >     >     > >> listeners
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Believe it or not, Donovan, the important active
> >     >     > components in the
> >     >     > > education process exist between students' ears, not
> >     >     > just teachers'.
> >     >     > > Amazingly, students can learn in spite of their
> >     >     > teachers, though what
> >     >     > > they learn may be debatable. Coordinating the two is
> >     >     > desirable.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > While more attention to the educational and parental
> >     >     > transitioning of
> >     >     > > kids to young adulthood may be needed, kicking kids
> >     >     > out of childhood
> >     >     > > homes without appropriate sustaining connections is
> >     >     > counterproductive
> >     >     > > to everyone.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Ken
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >     >     > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.???
> >     >     > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ???http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> >     <http://www.fsr.net/>? ? ? ?
> >     >     ? ? ? ? ? ?
> >     >     > ???
> >     >     > > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail..yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > -------------- next part --------------
> >     >     > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >     >     > > URL:
> >     >     > >
> >     >
> >
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20100219/6ea2643f/attachment-0001.html
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > ------------------------------
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Message: 2
> >     >     > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:20:11 -0800 (PST)
> >     >     > > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >     <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com
> >>
> >     >     > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> >     >     > Bicycle/Pedestrian
> >     >     > > Accidents & Code
> >     >     > > To: Art Deco <deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >
> >     >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com
> >>,
> >     >     > Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >     >
> >        <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com
> >>
> >     >     > > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> >     >     > > Message-ID: <983749.76694.qm at web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >     <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> >
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> >>
> >     >     > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > Ted,
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Just?mow their asses over when they step out of their
> >     >     > car. Call is carma.
> >     >     > > J/k :P
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Your Friend,
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Donovan Arnold
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >     >
> >        <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com
> >>
> >     >     > wrote:
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >     >
> >        <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com
> >>
> >     >     > > Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> >     >     > Bicycle/Pedestrian
> >     >     > > Accidents & Code
> >     >     > > To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >     >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com
> >>
> >     >     > > Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com<http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>
> >     >     > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 7:07 PM
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > I don't know what further charges could be made
> >     >     > against the driver of the
> >     >     > > car who struck these pedestrians in the crosswalk.?
> >     >     > But those operating
> >     >     > > cars and trucks are in effect in control of what can
> >     >     > be described as a
> >     >     > > weapon that can easily kill... The casual often
> >     >     > distracted or careless
> >     >     > > attitude of many drivers as they assume control over
> >     >     > the safety and lives
> >     >     > > of others on highways, streets, sidewalks and
> >     >     > crosswalks, is alarming.?
> >     >     > > The death toll on the highways justifies the alarm.?
> >     >     > And given cars and
> >     >     > > trucks cross sidewalks at "drive-ins," sidewalks are
> >     >     > not as safe as some
> >     >     > > might assume...
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > As is obvious,?the close proximity of those using
> >     >     > human powered
> >     >     > > transportation (which includes those walking)
> >     >     > with?cars and trucks in
> >     >     > > operation on streets and highways, sidewalks
> >     >     > and?crosswalks,?is a
> >     >     > > dangerous situation,?regardless of what laws are in
> >     >     > place.? But current
> >     >     > > laws covering these situations appears seriously
> >     >     > flawed.?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > The Boise City Council, and the Idaho legislature
> >     >     > (read info on this
> >     >     > >
> >     >
> >        here:?
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-February/068600.html?),
> >     >     >
> >     >     > > recently addressed this problem focusing on changes to
> >     >     > bicycle related
> >     >     > > code, inspired in part by the recent deaths of several
> >     >     > bicyclists in
> >     >     > > Idaho.? But I think the law should be crafted broadly
> >     >     > to cover what might
> >     >     > > be termed, "human powered transportation,"
> >     >     > pedestrians, bicycles,
> >     >     > > skateboards, roller blades, runners, and so forth.?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > 1)? All persons using human powered transportation on
> >     >     > sidewalks (with
> >     >     > > drive-ins for vehicles) and crosswalks, and of course
> >     >     > bicycles on streets
> >     >     > > and highways sharing the road with cars and trucks,
> >     >     > should be required to
> >     >     > > carry artificial light (viewable front, back and
> >     >     > sides) between sunset and
> >     >     > > sunrise.? The current Idaho code only indicates
> >     >     > bicycles and motor
> >     >     > > vehicles?should carry artificial light, as far as I
> >     >     > have?determined.? But
> >     >     > > runners, skateboarders, rollerbladers, etc. can
> >     >     > sometimes be moving faster
> >     >     > > than bicycles, while their movement might be more
> >     >     > sudden and erratic; and
> >     >     > > are subject to just as much risk from a collision with
> >     >     > a car or truck in
> >     >     > > crosswalks or on sidewalks with drive-ins..? Why are
> >     >     > they not required to
> >     >     > > carry artificial light at night?? I don't perceive any
> >     >     > good reason why
> >     >     > > they should not be required... If the pedestrians in
> >     >     > the recent
> >     >     > > car/pedestrian accident were carrying light (the
> >     >     > accident was at night, it
> >     >     > > appears, "2104
> >     >     > > hours"), the accident might have been avoided.
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > 2)? Given the advantages cars and trucks have in speed
> >     >     > (even in 25 mph
> >     >     > > zones cars are often?moving much faster than most all
> >     >     > using human powered
> >     >     > > transportation), mass and lighting capability, over
> >     >     > those using human
> >     >     > > powered transportation, and the odds of serous
> >     >     > injuries to those hit while
> >     >     > > using human powered transportation, it seems
> >     >     > reasonable to craft the law
> >     >     > > to assign extra responsibility to drivers of motor
> >     >     > vehicles to take extra
> >     >     > > "due care" that a crosswalk or sidewalk is not
> >     >     > occupied, or in a second or
> >     >     > > two about to be occupied, by a person using human
> >     >     > powered transportation.?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > I am not saying that the law should always blame the
> >     >     > driver of a motor
> >     >     > > vehicle if they hit someone using human powered
> >     >     > transportation in a
> >     >     > > crosswalk or sidewalk; but cars and trucks have
> >     >     > lighting capability that
> >     >     > > should always at night be able to illuminate a
> >     >     > sidewalk or crosswalk to
> >     >     > > allow seeing someone.? And if the?visibility of the
> >     >     > crosswalk or sidewalk
> >     >     > > is so poor that it is difficult to determine whether
> >     >     > these areas are in
> >     >     > > use, the motor vehicle driver should?assume extra
> >     >     > caution when crossing a
> >     >     > > crosswalk or sidewalk.? Even during daylight, if a
> >     >     > driver of a car or
> >     >     > > truck cannot be sure, due to the view of the whole
> >     >     > crosswalk being
> >     >     > > blocked, for example, by a large truck in an adjacent
> >     >     > lane, that a
> >     >     > > crosswalk or sidewalk is not occupied, the driver
> >     >     > should slow or stop till
> >     >     > > they can be sure the crosswalk is not occupied.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > The speed of motor vehicles often makes avoiding an
> >     >     > impending collision
> >     >     > > much more difficult for those using human powered
> >     >     > transportation, thus the
> >     >     > > increased responsibility that should be aimed at
> >     >     > drivers of cars and
> >     >     > > trucks to take extra "due care" they are not
> >     >     > endangering the public.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > As to how the code should be written to address these
> >     >     > issues, the legal
> >     >     > > eagles have the expertise...
> >     >     > > ------------------------------------------
> >     >     > > Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > On 2/16/10, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >     >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com
> >>
> >     >     > wrote:
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > I hope that more serious charges than inattentive
> >     >     > driving are brought and
> >     >     > > vigorously pursued.?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > How many more of these incidents are going to occur
> >     >     > before the MPD and the
> >     >     > > city attorney decide that traffic law enforcement
> >     >     > needs a lot more
> >     >     > > attention and vigor?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Wayne A. Fox
> >     >     > > 1009 Karen Lane
> >     >     > > PO Box 9421
> >     >     > > Moscow, ID? 83843
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > waf at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> >     >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> >     >     > > 208 882-7975
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > ----- Original Message -----
> >     >     > > From: Stephanie Kalasz
> >     >     > > To: v2020
> >     >     > > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:17 AM
> >     >     > > Subject: [Vision2020] MPD Press Release
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > MOSCOW POLICE DEPARTMENT
> >     >     > > 118 East 4th Street
> >     >     > > Moscow, Idaho 83843
> >     >     > > Tel: 208-882-COPS??? Fax: 208-882-4020
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > PRESS RELEASE
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > February 15, 2010
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > On Sunday, February 14, 2010, at 2104 hours, Moscow
> >     >     > Police, Fire and
> >     >     > > Volunteer Ambulance Service were dispatched to a
> >     >     > traffic accident with
> >     >     > > injuries at the intersection of Sixth and Asbury
> >     >     > Streets. Whitcom dispatch
> >     >     > > advised three pedestrians were struck by a vehicle at
> >     >     > this location. ?
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Officers observed two women on the north sidewalk in a
> >     >     > prone position
> >     >     > > being attended to by two males upon their arrival.?
> >     >     > These women were
> >     >     > > identified as Rachel Price (W/F 19 years old of
> >     >     > Moscow) and Ericka Brown
> >     >     > > W/F 18 year old of Moscow).? Rachel Price complained
> >     >     > of head and elbow
> >     >     > > injuries.? Ericka Brown complained of lower back and
> >     >     > hip injuries.? The
> >     >     > > male attending to Brown, Ryan Stewart (W/M 18 year old
> >     >     > of Pullman) stated
> >     >     > > he had also been struck but did not require medical
> >     >     > attention at this
> >     >     > > time.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Officers determined a Silver 1993 Toyota Camry driven
> >     >     > by Travis Hartshorn
> >     >     > > (W/M 20 years old of Moscow) was driving east on 6th
> >     >     > Street.? Hartshorn
> >     >     > > attempted to turn north (left) on Asbury when he
> >     >     > struck the three
> >     >     > > pedestrians who were walking west in the marked
> >     >     > crosswalk along the north
> >     >     > > side of 6th Street at Asbury.? Brown and Price were
> >     >     > stuck by the front of
> >     >     > > the Toyota as it was turning. Both Brown and Price
> >     >     > come into contact with
> >     >     > > the hood and windshield of the Toyota before being
> >     >     > ejected off onto the
> >     >     > > roadway.? Stewart stated his left leg was clipped by
> >     >     > the left front of the
> >     >     > > Toyota at the same time it struck the two women.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Rachel Price and Ericka Brown were transported to
> >     >     > Gritman Medical Center
> >     >     > > by Moscow Volunteer Ambulance.? Travis Hartshorn was
> >     >     > cited and released
> >     >     > > for inattentive driving and failure to provide current
> >     >     > proof of liability
> >     >     > > insurance.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > > Please contact A.C. Duke at 208-310-9254 for
> >     >     > additional information.
> >     >     > > ?
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >     >     > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.???
> >     >     > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ???http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> >     <http://www.fsr.net/>? ? ? ?
> >     >     ? ? ? ? ? ?
> >     >     > ???
> >     >     > > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > -------------- next part --------------
> >     >     > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >     >     > > URL:
> >     >     > >
> >     >
> >
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20100219/9029c9ed/attachment.html
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > ------------------------------
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >     >     > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >     >     > >               >    http://www.fsr.net
> >     <http://www.fsr.net/> <http://www.fsr.net/>
> >     >     > >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     > >
> >     >     > > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 44, Issue 121
> >     >     > > *******************************************
> >     >     >
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >     >     >  serving the communities of the Palouse since
> >     >     > 1994.       >                >    http://www.fsr.net
> >     <http://www.fsr.net/>  <http://www.fsr.net%A0<http://www.fsr.net%a0/>
> >     <http://www.fsr.net%a0/>>            >                  >
> >        mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >     > =======================================================
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >     =======================================================
> >     >     List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >     >     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                 http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> >     <http://www.fsr.net/>
> >     mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >     >
> >        <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com<http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> >     >     =======================================================
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20100220/2d79a811/attachment-0001.html 


More information about the Vision2020 mailing list