[Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
Andreas Schou
ophite at gmail.com
Sat Feb 20 23:44:02 PST 2010
Donovan --
In short: you believe the government should have cameras in our houses in
order to take pictures of potential illegal activity?
-- ACS
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I agree that the school needs to inform the students and parents that the
> devices have cameras that monitor the behavior of the user in front of it so
> students know to turn off the computer for privacy while while doing
> personal activities of daily living. Not doing so is a serious violation of
> individual privacy.
>
> But I disagree that schools should allow children, unfettered and
> unsupervised, to use a school computer.
>
> I think it is a good idea to be able to take a snapshot of the user of a
> computer if they are committing an illegal activity to know who it is, it
> could be the child, the child's father or older brother committing the
> illegal or wrongful activities, or stealing the computer.
> Your Friend,
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 4:20 PM
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > I think the school is at fault for not informing parents and teenagers
> > that their computer usage is being monitored.
> >
>
> It's not their computer usage that is being monitored. All that would
> take is a program to send application usage statistics back to a server
> somewhere. We're talking about some school official remotely turning on
> the camera and taking a picture of whatever is in front of it without
> the student being aware that a picture is being taken. Say, for
> example, when they finish their homework and, without turning off their
> laptop, change their clothes to get ready for hockey practice or
> whatever. Do you really think it's OK for a school administrator to be
> able to take pictures of the inside of a student's bedroom any time they
> please? Most people I know won't even enter their child's bedroom
> without knocking first. They would be outraged to find out that school
> administrators had the ability all along to covertly take pictures at
> any time.
>
> >
> > But yes, common sense here, I am opposed to children using government
> > computers or any property for building bombs, looking at pornography,
> > drinking, having sex, and smoking pot. Those are illegal and
> > inappropriate activities for children. I would hope to God school
> > officials would care enough to interfere if children were doing those
> > things, and not allow them to defile themselves on the Internet, or
> > other children on the Internet. Or to become victims of online predators.
> >
>
> I think we're talking past each other, here. They aren't using the
> laptops to build bombs or have sex, the laptop would simply be sitting
> there unused by the student snapping pictures of them doing whatever
> activities the student happened to be engaged in. Whether that's lying
> down listening to their iPod or torturing squirrels.
>
> So pretend it's not a laptop. Pretend it's some other device the
> administration gave them, like a trophy or something. Would you
> complain if you found out that the trophy the school gave your kid had a
> hidden camera in it that would wirelessly send images back to the school
> officials whenever they chose to activate it? Suppose you chose to
> place the trophy in your own bedroom, unaware that it was a spying
> device. Would you consider it OK for the school to take pictures, just
> to make sure that your kid is behaving the way the school thinks they
> should?
>
> >
> > Yes, some children have adults watching out for them, but not all of
> > them do. When they become adults, the choice to do those things will
> > be their mistake to make, but as children we have to protect them from
> > online predators and from their own dangerous and misguided behavior.
> >
>
> Who is "we"? Is it OK for me to hack these computers and take snapshots
> on a regular basis of these kids and send incriminating photos to the
> parents anonymously? The school officials have no more right to peep
> into the bedrooms of children than I do.
>
> Paul
>
> >
> > Your Friend,
> >
> > Donovan Arnold
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>/*
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> > To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >
> > Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 3:43 AM
> >
> > Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > > Paul,
> > > You are not allowed to tamper with government computers by
> > downloading or erasing software. If the government gives you a
> > computer you should only be allowed to use it for which it was
> > intended, nothing else.
> > >
> >
> > Running the computer from CD just means that you are running the
> > OS on the CD and not the one on the hard drive. It doesn't
> > download or erase anything. What exactly you can or cannot do
> > with it would depend upon what the contract said that you have to
> > sign when you agree to borrow it.
> >
> > > If these were adults, I would agree peeking at their activities
> > would be improper. However, children need protection, guidance and
> > adult supervision. Having said that, they also do need some
> > privacy as well. Nothing a child does on government owned computer
> > should fall within what a child should consider private. If they
> > own their own computer at home, or are an adult, then I agree,
> > educational staff should not be looking at their activities.
> > >
> >
> > Does that include turning on the camera and monitoring them to
> > make sure that the kids aren't smoking pot, having sex,
> > masturbating, or building bombs in their own bedrooms? Because
> > that's what this is about.
> >
> > Kids have a parent or other guardian that is supposed to be
> > teaching them morality and what type of behavior is inappropriate
> > at home. The school administrators have no business attempting to
> > police the kids at their homes.
> >
> > Personally, I hope these guys get nailed in a big way. As in
> > being found guilty of criminal charges, such as wiretapping or
> > child pornography charges. That would go a long way towards
> > setting a precedent for this kind of Big Brother action. This is
> > a frighteningly direct step towards the telescreens that were
> > described in Orwell's 1984 that you couldn't turn off or evade
> > without being thrown in prison or worse.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > > Your Friend,
> > > Donovan Arnold
> > >
> > > --- On *Fri, 2/19/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com
> >>/*
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com
> >,
> > "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 8:10 PM
> > >
> > > I read about this yesterday. It's a good reason why the
> > potential
> > > for abuse should outweigh the potential benefits for all such
> > > invasive ideas.
> > >
> > > The basic idea was that if a student had their laptop stolen
> and
> > > the thief wasn't smart enough to boot it with a live CD and
> > > reformat it, the administrators could (after finding out it was
> > > stolen) remotely activate the camera and take a picture of the
> > > thief.
> > > A good idea on paper. Obviously it turns out that the
> potential
> > > for abuse was too high. Someone probably got the bright
> > idea that
> > > they could find out what sort of "inappropriate behavior" was
> > > going on for select troublemakers by using this feature and
> > > succumbed to the temptation. That's assuming this wasn't their
> > > main purpose in the first place.
> > >
> > > There are a couple of interesting aspects of this case as
> > well. If the "inappropriate behavior" involved nudity, then the
> > > administrator or whoever it was that remotely activated this
> > > feature could face criminal child pornography charges. Not to
> > > mention that the person might end up taking photos of someone
> in
> > > the room that couldn't be construed even remotely as being
> under
> > > their "guardianship".
> > > The biggest question I have is this: what could possibly be
> > > considered "inappropriate behavior" in the student's own
> > home? Notice they didn't say anything about illegal behavior,
> just
> > > "inappropriate". Since when do school officials think it's
> > OK to
> > > force their own set of values on kids when they aren't at
> > school?
> > >
> > > Do any schools around here lend out laptops? If they do, I'd
> > > highly recommend that students used the computer by booting it
> > > with an Ubuntu Live CD and not running the OS that came with it
> > > (whatever flavor it was) just to avoid this kind of
> > situation. That's if the contract doesn't allow you simply to
> > reformat it and
> > > install what you want on it yourself. Running with a live
> > CD will
> > > not affect the OS that is on it, it just won't be running it so
> > > their nifty remote activation software won't work.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Kai Eiselein <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow..com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Kai Eiselein <le-editor at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com<http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 11:50 AM
> > > > So, on one hand we have those who
> > > > advocate sending teens to the doorstep.
> > > > On the other we have educators who think they have the
> > > > right to invade the
> > > > homes of students.
> > > > Both camps are equally disturbing.
> > > >
> > > > >From AOL News:
> > > > School Used Laptops to Spy on Students, Suit Says
> > > > By David Knowles
> > > >
> > > > (Feb. 18) -- A Pennsylvania high school stands accused of
> > > > spying on its own
> > > > students with the very computers it gave them.
> > > >
> > > > Pennsylvania's Lower Merion School District boasts an
> > > > impressive program
> > > > that loans nearly 1,800 high school students a laptop with
> > > > which to work at
> > > > home. Superintendent Christopher McGinley said at the
> > > > beginning of the
> > > > school year that the program "ensures that all students
> > > > have 24/7 access to
> > > > school-based resources and the ability to seamlessly work
> > > > on projects and
> > > > research at school and at home."
> > > >
> > > > The problem, according to a new lawsuit, is that the
> > > > computers gave school
> > > > officials the potential of having 24/7 visual contact with
> > > > students wherever
> > > > they may be, and whatever they may be doing.
> > > >
> > > > A 10th-grader at Harriton High School in Rosemont, Pa.,
> > > > Blake Robbins,
> > > > brought his school-issued laptop home with him on Nov. 11.
> > > > The next day,
> > > > however, he says Harriton's vice principal, Lindy Matsko,
> > > > confronted the
> > > > student about what she considered inappropriate behavior in
> > > > the boy's home.
> > > > As evidence, Matsko produced a photograph taken inside
> > > > Robbins' home by the
> > > > laptop's webcam.
> > > >
> > > > The boy's father, Michael Robbins, contacted the school
> > > > after learning of
> > > > the incident. He confirmed that the webcams could be
> > > > activated remotely by
> > > > school personnel, enabling them to view students in their
> > > > homes.
> > > >
> > > > Blake Robbins' parents have filed the lawsuit on behalf of
> > > > their son. It
> > > > claims that the school district never warmed students that
> > > > the webcams could
> > > > be used to monitor their actions.
> > > >
> > > > Harriton High School declined to comment on the case,
> > > > referring calls to the
> > > > Lower Merion School District's public relations manager,
> > > > Doug Young.
> > > >
> > > > "We can categorically state that we are -- and have always
> > > > been -- committed
> > > > to protecting the privacy of our students," Young told the
> > > > Philadelphia
> > > > Inquirer. "We have referred this matter to our attorneys
> > > > for appropriate
> > > > legal action and plan to communicate with parents and
> > > > students with more
> > > > information as it becomes available."
> > > >
> > > > Late Thursday, McGinley posted a formal apology to parents
> > > > and students on
> > > > the district's Web site, attempting to explain the protocol
> > > > for activating
> > > > the laptops' webcams.
> > > >
> > > > "District laptops do contain a security feature intended to
> > > > track lost,
> > > > stolen and missing laptops," McGinley wrote. "The security
> > > > feature, which
> > > > was disabled today, was installed to help locate a laptop
> > > > in the event it
> > > > was reported lost, missing or stolen so that the laptop
> > > > could be returned to
> > > > the student."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <vision2020-request at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com
> >
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447..mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> >>
> > > > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 11:20 AM
> > > > Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 44, Issue 121
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
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> > > > >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > >
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> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-owner@moscow.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> > > > more specific
> > > > > than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Today's Topics:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Re: One Way to Save the State Lots
> > > > and Lots of Money
> > > > > (Donovan Arnold)
> > > > > 2. Re: Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> > > > Bicycle/Pedestrian Accidents &
> > > > > Code (Donovan Arnold)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 1
> > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:15:01 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com
> >>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One Way to Save the State
> > > > Lots and Lots of
> > > > > Money
> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> > > > Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> > >
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net
> >>
> > > > > Message-ID: <374708.57433.qm at web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> >
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703..mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > > >
> > > > > Marcy PhD,
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Judging from your prior lectures on the V, and limited
> > > > original content,
> > > > > my posts are not to be read by you, for the sake of
> > > > your insanity and
> > > > > inability to understand tongue in cheek posts; which
> > > > 90% of my posts
> > > > > contain (charcter flaw I know).
> > > > > ?
> > > > > There is nothing more drab and unproductive than a
> > > > poster like Marcy,
> > > > > PhD,?that simply?lecures endlessly?and parroting
> > > > exactly what everyone
> > > > > else is saying and thinking with no sense of humor
> > > > and/or originality, no
> > > > > new points, just volumes of the SSSS (Same Subject
> > > > Same S***) piled higher
> > > > > and deeper.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Marcy PhD, try?lecturing something new, interesting,
> > > > constructive, or
> > > > > thought provoking instead of copying and pasting
> > > > everyone else's posts and
> > > > > putting your name on it.
> > > > > Your should exercise?YOUR freedom of speech, not your
> > > > neighbors.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Your Friend,
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon..net<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> > >
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net
> >>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> > >
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net
> >>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One Way to Save the State
> > > > Lots and Lots of Money
> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:49 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thursday 18 February 2010 13:51:38 Donovan Arnold
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> Not wasting $60 million???
> > > > >
> > > > > First, from whom did those sixty million dollars come?
> > > > After the
> > > > > recent Risch rush to regressive revenue raising,
> > > > changing from richer
> > > > > to poorer tax sources, it's likely that those who lost
> > > > the most to
> > > > > their new taxation also stand to lose the most
> > > > economic opportunity
> > > > > to their future lack of educational resources
> > > > traditionally supplied.
> > > > > So, who, exactly, is entitled to judge wastefulness of
> > > > these dollars?
> > > > > ?
> > > > >> Of course,?Donovan, would?think this is a great
> > > > idea. Why?
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps because Donovan's thinking is of a meager and
> > > > insubstantial
> > > > > sort, insufficiently well-connecting the relevant
> > > > relations among the
> > > > > parties and facts of the situation? Or maybe Donovan
> > > > is in a vocal
> > > > > mood, wondering if he can yet again stir the
> > > > Vision2020 conversation.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Because 16-19 year olds cannot listen to
> > > > adults?and already know
> > > > >> everything. If you don't believe me, just ask
> > > > them. They are the
> > > > >> experts on every subject. They already know far
> > > > more than their
> > > > >> parents, grandparents, and the rest of world,
> > > > combined. :P
> > > > >
> > > > > Sometimes good communication among parents and
> > > > children allows a good
> > > > > transition from parental household to the child's
> > > > emancipation. Other
> > > > > times, not. Comments have been made for generations
> > > > through eons,
> > > > > from the ancients onward. Some were notable, as this
> > > > from Samuel
> > > > > Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain):
> > > > >
> > > > > "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so
> > > > ignorant I could
> > > > > hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I
> > > > got to be
> > > > > twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man
> > > > had learned in
> > > > > seven years."
> > > > >
> > > > >> Putting teenagers out on their own, IMHO, would be
> > > > the best way of
> > > > >> getting them to?learn about the real world, that
> > > > they don't know
> > > > >> everything, and their parents might not be such
> > > > the blundering
> > > > >> idiots that survived only on chance and charity
> > > > that they thought
> > > > >> they were, and might be worth listening to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Shoving a non-swimming kid into the deep end of a pool
> > > > is rude, crude,
> > > > > uncouth, and perpetuates the ignorance one wishes
> > > > education to erase.
> > > > > Putting unprepared teenagers, without their majority
> > > > legal rights,
> > > > > out into the world is dangerous and risky for kids and
> > > > parents alike.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wouldn't it be great if the kids got swimming lessons,
> > > > and the parents
> > > > > got parenting lessons? Adult basic education has a
> > > > place in society.
> > > > >
> > > > >> So, I support on their 17th birthday, putting them
> > > > out on the
> > > > >> doorstep with a?sack of clothes, a bag of Idaho
> > > > grown?potatoes, a
> > > > >> condom, and?their Ipod to give them the
> > > > opportunity to?show the
> > > > >> world how dumb it is and how profoundly
> > > > intellectually advanced and
> > > > >> gifted they are.
> > > > >
> > > > > Instead of supporting the better interests of the
> > > > children's welfare,
> > > > > and better long-term relations among parents and
> > > > children a few years
> > > > > later, what you are supporting is curmudgeonly
> > > > self-entertainment of
> > > > > the sort shown in the editorial cartoon of Dick
> > > > Cheney, in pajamas
> > > > > and bathrobe, sitting in a chair aiming the TV clicker
> > > > at the set
> > > > > during the winter Olympics, yelling "When is the
> > > > "#@$%&^"
> > > > > waterboarding competition?" In other words, torture as
> > > > entertainment.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the practice of turning kids loose for a year
> > > > became widespread,
> > > > > don't you suppose that some of those kids who didn't
> > > > talk with their
> > > > > parents might talk with each other? And perhaps find
> > > > ways to show
> > > > > their displeasure at their ill-treatment? How about
> > > > nocturnal
> > > > > guerrilla spud-gun attacks through some well-deserving
> > > > living room
> > > > > windows? Has the Homeland Security Office in your
> > > > neighborhood
> > > > > considered whether alternative parenting strategies
> > > > might prevent
> > > > > tuber terrorists expressing their disappointment at
> > > > being kicked out
> > > > > without so much as a GED to attach to a fast-food job
> > > > application?
> > > > >
> > > > >> On their 18th birthday they can return provided
> > > > they sign a
> > > > >> contract not to do drugs, to shut up until they
> > > > are?23, listen to
> > > > >> their parents and obey them, show up for school
> > > > every day, and
> > > > >> study as hard as they can. : )
> > > > >
> > > > > Donovan, the market for dysfunctional families appears
> > > > well-supplied
> > > > > already, so adding highly unlikely, not to say,
> > > > fantasy, contractual
> > > > > obligations to these situational tragedies is akin to
> > > > adding empty
> > > > > calories to silly-salads of unlikely mixed
> > > > ingredients.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Do this and you will get your $60 million worth of
> > > > education out of
> > > > >> them their senior year.
> > > > >
> > > > > The worth of an education is not measured in a year's
> > > > performance, but
> > > > > rather in a lifetime of achievement.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Otherwise, they are largely a waste of time and
> > > > you might as well???
> > > > >> pay teachers to educate a brick wall, they are at
> > > > least better? ???
> > > > >> listeners
> > > > >
> > > > > Believe it or not, Donovan, the important active
> > > > components in the
> > > > > education process exist between students' ears, not
> > > > just teachers'.
> > > > > Amazingly, students can learn in spite of their
> > > > teachers, though what
> > > > > they learn may be debatable. Coordinating the two is
> > > > desirable.
> > > > >
> > > > > While more attention to the educational and parental
> > > > transitioning of
> > > > > kids to young adulthood may be needed, kicking kids
> > > > out of childhood
> > > > > homes without appropriate sustaining connections is
> > > > counterproductive
> > > > > to everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.???
> > > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ???http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> > <http://www.fsr.net/>? ? ? ?
> > > ? ? ? ? ? ?
> > > > ???
> > > > > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail..yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > > URL:
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20100219/6ea2643f/attachment-0001.html
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 2
> > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:20:11 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com
> >>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> > > > Bicycle/Pedestrian
> > > > > Accidents & Code
> > > > > To: Art Deco <deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >
> > > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com
> >>,
> > > > Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> > >
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com
> >>
> > > > > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> > > > > Message-ID: <983749.76694.qm at web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> >
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> >>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > > >
> > > > > Ted,
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Just?mow their asses over when they step out of their
> > > > car. Call is carma.
> > > > > J/k :P
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Your Friend,
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> > >
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com
> >>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> > >
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com
> >>
> > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> > > > Bicycle/Pedestrian
> > > > > Accidents & Code
> > > > > To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com
> >>
> > > > > Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com<http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>
> > > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 7:07 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know what further charges could be made
> > > > against the driver of the
> > > > > car who struck these pedestrians in the crosswalk.?
> > > > But those operating
> > > > > cars and trucks are in effect in control of what can
> > > > be described as a
> > > > > weapon that can easily kill... The casual often
> > > > distracted or careless
> > > > > attitude of many drivers as they assume control over
> > > > the safety and lives
> > > > > of others on highways, streets, sidewalks and
> > > > crosswalks, is alarming.?
> > > > > The death toll on the highways justifies the alarm.?
> > > > And given cars and
> > > > > trucks cross sidewalks at "drive-ins," sidewalks are
> > > > not as safe as some
> > > > > might assume...
> > > > > ?
> > > > > As is obvious,?the close proximity of those using
> > > > human powered
> > > > > transportation (which includes those walking)
> > > > with?cars and trucks in
> > > > > operation on streets and highways, sidewalks
> > > > and?crosswalks,?is a
> > > > > dangerous situation,?regardless of what laws are in
> > > > place.? But current
> > > > > laws covering these situations appears seriously
> > > > flawed.?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > The Boise City Council, and the Idaho legislature
> > > > (read info on this
> > > > >
> > >
> > here:?
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-February/068600.html?),
> > > >
> > > > > recently addressed this problem focusing on changes to
> > > > bicycle related
> > > > > code, inspired in part by the recent deaths of several
> > > > bicyclists in
> > > > > Idaho.? But I think the law should be crafted broadly
> > > > to cover what might
> > > > > be termed, "human powered transportation,"
> > > > pedestrians, bicycles,
> > > > > skateboards, roller blades, runners, and so forth.?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > 1)? All persons using human powered transportation on
> > > > sidewalks (with
> > > > > drive-ins for vehicles) and crosswalks, and of course
> > > > bicycles on streets
> > > > > and highways sharing the road with cars and trucks,
> > > > should be required to
> > > > > carry artificial light (viewable front, back and
> > > > sides) between sunset and
> > > > > sunrise.? The current Idaho code only indicates
> > > > bicycles and motor
> > > > > vehicles?should carry artificial light, as far as I
> > > > have?determined.? But
> > > > > runners, skateboarders, rollerbladers, etc. can
> > > > sometimes be moving faster
> > > > > than bicycles, while their movement might be more
> > > > sudden and erratic; and
> > > > > are subject to just as much risk from a collision with
> > > > a car or truck in
> > > > > crosswalks or on sidewalks with drive-ins..? Why are
> > > > they not required to
> > > > > carry artificial light at night?? I don't perceive any
> > > > good reason why
> > > > > they should not be required... If the pedestrians in
> > > > the recent
> > > > > car/pedestrian accident were carrying light (the
> > > > accident was at night, it
> > > > > appears, "2104
> > > > > hours"), the accident might have been avoided.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2)? Given the advantages cars and trucks have in speed
> > > > (even in 25 mph
> > > > > zones cars are often?moving much faster than most all
> > > > using human powered
> > > > > transportation), mass and lighting capability, over
> > > > those using human
> > > > > powered transportation, and the odds of serous
> > > > injuries to those hit while
> > > > > using human powered transportation, it seems
> > > > reasonable to craft the law
> > > > > to assign extra responsibility to drivers of motor
> > > > vehicles to take extra
> > > > > "due care" that a crosswalk or sidewalk is not
> > > > occupied, or in a second or
> > > > > two about to be occupied, by a person using human
> > > > powered transportation.?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > I am not saying that the law should always blame the
> > > > driver of a motor
> > > > > vehicle if they hit someone using human powered
> > > > transportation in a
> > > > > crosswalk or sidewalk; but cars and trucks have
> > > > lighting capability that
> > > > > should always at night be able to illuminate a
> > > > sidewalk or crosswalk to
> > > > > allow seeing someone.? And if the?visibility of the
> > > > crosswalk or sidewalk
> > > > > is so poor that it is difficult to determine whether
> > > > these areas are in
> > > > > use, the motor vehicle driver should?assume extra
> > > > caution when crossing a
> > > > > crosswalk or sidewalk.? Even during daylight, if a
> > > > driver of a car or
> > > > > truck cannot be sure, due to the view of the whole
> > > > crosswalk being
> > > > > blocked, for example, by a large truck in an adjacent
> > > > lane, that a
> > > > > crosswalk or sidewalk is not occupied, the driver
> > > > should slow or stop till
> > > > > they can be sure the crosswalk is not occupied.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > The speed of motor vehicles often makes avoiding an
> > > > impending collision
> > > > > much more difficult for those using human powered
> > > > transportation, thus the
> > > > > increased responsibility that should be aimed at
> > > > drivers of cars and
> > > > > trucks to take extra "due care" they are not
> > > > endangering the public.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > As to how the code should be written to address these
> > > > issues, the legal
> > > > > eagles have the expertise...
> > > > > ------------------------------------------
> > > > > Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
> > > > > ?
> > > > > On 2/16/10, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com
> >>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope that more serious charges than inattentive
> > > > driving are brought and
> > > > > vigorously pursued.?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > How many more of these incidents are going to occur
> > > > before the MPD and the
> > > > > city attorney decide that traffic law enforcement
> > > > needs a lot more
> > > > > attention and vigor?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Wayne A. Fox
> > > > > 1009 Karen Lane
> > > > > PO Box 9421
> > > > > Moscow, ID? 83843
> > > > > ?
> > > > > waf at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> > > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> > > > > 208 882-7975
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Stephanie Kalasz
> > > > > To: v2020
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:17 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] MPD Press Release
> > > > >
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > > MOSCOW POLICE DEPARTMENT
> > > > > 118 East 4th Street
> > > > > Moscow, Idaho 83843
> > > > > Tel: 208-882-COPS??? Fax: 208-882-4020
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PRESS RELEASE
> > > > > ?
> > > > > February 15, 2010
> > > > > ?
> > > > > On Sunday, February 14, 2010, at 2104 hours, Moscow
> > > > Police, Fire and
> > > > > Volunteer Ambulance Service were dispatched to a
> > > > traffic accident with
> > > > > injuries at the intersection of Sixth and Asbury
> > > > Streets. Whitcom dispatch
> > > > > advised three pedestrians were struck by a vehicle at
> > > > this location. ?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Officers observed two women on the north sidewalk in a
> > > > prone position
> > > > > being attended to by two males upon their arrival.?
> > > > These women were
> > > > > identified as Rachel Price (W/F 19 years old of
> > > > Moscow) and Ericka Brown
> > > > > W/F 18 year old of Moscow).? Rachel Price complained
> > > > of head and elbow
> > > > > injuries.? Ericka Brown complained of lower back and
> > > > hip injuries.? The
> > > > > male attending to Brown, Ryan Stewart (W/M 18 year old
> > > > of Pullman) stated
> > > > > he had also been struck but did not require medical
> > > > attention at this
> > > > > time.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Officers determined a Silver 1993 Toyota Camry driven
> > > > by Travis Hartshorn
> > > > > (W/M 20 years old of Moscow) was driving east on 6th
> > > > Street.? Hartshorn
> > > > > attempted to turn north (left) on Asbury when he
> > > > struck the three
> > > > > pedestrians who were walking west in the marked
> > > > crosswalk along the north
> > > > > side of 6th Street at Asbury.? Brown and Price were
> > > > stuck by the front of
> > > > > the Toyota as it was turning. Both Brown and Price
> > > > come into contact with
> > > > > the hood and windshield of the Toyota before being
> > > > ejected off onto the
> > > > > roadway.? Stewart stated his left leg was clipped by
> > > > the left front of the
> > > > > Toyota at the same time it struck the two women.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Rachel Price and Ericka Brown were transported to
> > > > Gritman Medical Center
> > > > > by Moscow Volunteer Ambulance.? Travis Hartshorn was
> > > > cited and released
> > > > > for inattentive driving and failure to provide current
> > > > proof of liability
> > > > > insurance.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Please contact A.C. Duke at 208-310-9254 for
> > > > additional information.
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.???
> > > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ???http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> > <http://www.fsr.net/>? ? ? ?
> > > ? ? ? ? ? ?
> > > > ???
> > > > > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > <http://www.fsr.net/> <http://www.fsr.net/>
> > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > >
> > > > > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 44, Issue 121
> > > > > *******************************************
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since
> > > > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net
> > <http://www.fsr.net/> <http://www.fsr.net%A0<http://www.fsr.net%a0/>
> > <http://www.fsr.net%a0/>> > >
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> > <http://www.fsr.net/>
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > >
> > <
> http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com<http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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