[Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Sat Feb 20 08:20:19 PST 2010
Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I think the school is at fault for not informing parents and teenagers
> that their computer usage is being monitored.
>
It's not their computer usage that is being monitored. All that would
take is a program to send application usage statistics back to a server
somewhere. We're talking about some school official remotely turning on
the camera and taking a picture of whatever is in front of it without
the student being aware that a picture is being taken. Say, for
example, when they finish their homework and, without turning off their
laptop, change their clothes to get ready for hockey practice or
whatever. Do you really think it's OK for a school administrator to be
able to take pictures of the inside of a student's bedroom any time they
please? Most people I know won't even enter their child's bedroom
without knocking first. They would be outraged to find out that school
administrators had the ability all along to covertly take pictures at
any time.
>
> But yes, common sense here, I am opposed to children using government
> computers or any property for building bombs, looking at pornography,
> drinking, having sex, and smoking pot. Those are illegal and
> inappropriate activities for children. I would hope to God school
> officials would care enough to interfere if children were doing those
> things, and not allow them to defile themselves on the Internet, or
> other children on the Internet. Or to become victims of online predators.
>
I think we're talking past each other, here. They aren't using the
laptops to build bombs or have sex, the laptop would simply be sitting
there unused by the student snapping pictures of them doing whatever
activities the student happened to be engaged in. Whether that's lying
down listening to their iPod or torturing squirrels.
So pretend it's not a laptop. Pretend it's some other device the
administration gave them, like a trophy or something. Would you
complain if you found out that the trophy the school gave your kid had a
hidden camera in it that would wirelessly send images back to the school
officials whenever they chose to activate it? Suppose you chose to
place the trophy in your own bedroom, unaware that it was a spying
device. Would you consider it OK for the school to take pictures, just
to make sure that your kid is behaving the way the school thinks they
should?
>
> Yes, some children have adults watching out for them, but not all of
> them do. When they become adults, the choice to do those things will
> be their mistake to make, but as children we have to protect them from
> online predators and from their own dangerous and misguided behavior.
>
Who is "we"? Is it OK for me to hack these computers and take snapshots
on a regular basis of these kids and send incriminating photos to the
parents anonymously? The school officials have no more right to peep
into the bedrooms of children than I do.
Paul
>
> Your Friend,
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/20/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 3:43 AM
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > Paul,
> > You are not allowed to tamper with government computers by
> downloading or erasing software. If the government gives you a
> computer you should only be allowed to use it for which it was
> intended, nothing else.
> >
>
> Running the computer from CD just means that you are running the
> OS on the CD and not the one on the hard drive. It doesn't
> download or erase anything. What exactly you can or cannot do
> with it would depend upon what the contract said that you have to
> sign when you agree to borrow it.
>
> > If these were adults, I would agree peeking at their activities
> would be improper. However, children need protection, guidance and
> adult supervision. Having said that, they also do need some
> privacy as well. Nothing a child does on government owned computer
> should fall within what a child should consider private. If they
> own their own computer at home, or are an adult, then I agree,
> educational staff should not be looking at their activities.
> >
>
> Does that include turning on the camera and monitoring them to
> make sure that the kids aren't smoking pot, having sex,
> masturbating, or building bombs in their own bedrooms? Because
> that's what this is about.
>
> Kids have a parent or other guardian that is supposed to be
> teaching them morality and what type of behavior is inappropriate
> at home. The school administrators have no business attempting to
> police the kids at their homes.
>
> Personally, I hope these guys get nailed in a big way. As in
> being found guilty of criminal charges, such as wiretapping or
> child pornography charges. That would go a long way towards
> setting a precedent for this kind of Big Brother action. This is
> a frighteningly direct step towards the telescreens that were
> described in Orwell's 1984 that you couldn't turn off or evade
> without being thrown in prison or worse.
>
> Paul
>
> > Your Friend,
> > Donovan Arnold
> >
> > --- On *Fri, 2/19/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>/*
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> "Kai Eiselein" <le-editor at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 8:10 PM
> >
> > I read about this yesterday. It's a good reason why the
> potential
> > for abuse should outweigh the potential benefits for all such
> > invasive ideas.
> >
> > The basic idea was that if a student had their laptop stolen and
> > the thief wasn't smart enough to boot it with a live CD and
> > reformat it, the administrators could (after finding out it was
> > stolen) remotely activate the camera and take a picture of the
> > thief.
> > A good idea on paper. Obviously it turns out that the potential
> > for abuse was too high. Someone probably got the bright
> idea that
> > they could find out what sort of "inappropriate behavior" was
> > going on for select troublemakers by using this feature and
> > succumbed to the temptation. That's assuming this wasn't their
> > main purpose in the first place.
> >
> > There are a couple of interesting aspects of this case as
> well. If the "inappropriate behavior" involved nudity, then the
> > administrator or whoever it was that remotely activated this
> > feature could face criminal child pornography charges. Not to
> > mention that the person might end up taking photos of someone in
> > the room that couldn't be construed even remotely as being under
> > their "guardianship".
> > The biggest question I have is this: what could possibly be
> > considered "inappropriate behavior" in the student's own
> home? Notice they didn't say anything about illegal behavior, just
> > "inappropriate". Since when do school officials think it's
> OK to
> > force their own set of values on kids when they aren't at
> school?
> >
> > Do any schools around here lend out laptops? If they do, I'd
> > highly recommend that students used the computer by booting it
> > with an Ubuntu Live CD and not running the OS that came with it
> > (whatever flavor it was) just to avoid this kind of
> situation. That's if the contract doesn't allow you simply to
> reformat it and
> > install what you want on it yourself. Running with a live
> CD will
> > not affect the OS that is on it, it just won't be running it so
> > their nifty remote activation software won't work.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Kai Eiselein <le-editor at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Kai Eiselein <le-editor at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=le-editor@moscow.com>>
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] Teenagers and responsibilty
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 11:50 AM
> > > So, on one hand we have those who
> > > advocate sending teens to the doorstep.
> > > On the other we have educators who think they have the
> > > right to invade the
> > > homes of students.
> > > Both camps are equally disturbing.
> > >
> > > >From AOL News:
> > > School Used Laptops to Spy on Students, Suit Says
> > > By David Knowles
> > >
> > > (Feb. 18) -- A Pennsylvania high school stands accused of
> > > spying on its own
> > > students with the very computers it gave them.
> > >
> > > Pennsylvania's Lower Merion School District boasts an
> > > impressive program
> > > that loans nearly 1,800 high school students a laptop with
> > > which to work at
> > > home. Superintendent Christopher McGinley said at the
> > > beginning of the
> > > school year that the program "ensures that all students
> > > have 24/7 access to
> > > school-based resources and the ability to seamlessly work
> > > on projects and
> > > research at school and at home."
> > >
> > > The problem, according to a new lawsuit, is that the
> > > computers gave school
> > > officials the potential of having 24/7 visual contact with
> > > students wherever
> > > they may be, and whatever they may be doing.
> > >
> > > A 10th-grader at Harriton High School in Rosemont, Pa.,
> > > Blake Robbins,
> > > brought his school-issued laptop home with him on Nov. 11.
> > > The next day,
> > > however, he says Harriton's vice principal, Lindy Matsko,
> > > confronted the
> > > student about what she considered inappropriate behavior in
> > > the boy's home.
> > > As evidence, Matsko produced a photograph taken inside
> > > Robbins' home by the
> > > laptop's webcam.
> > >
> > > The boy's father, Michael Robbins, contacted the school
> > > after learning of
> > > the incident. He confirmed that the webcams could be
> > > activated remotely by
> > > school personnel, enabling them to view students in their
> > > homes.
> > >
> > > Blake Robbins' parents have filed the lawsuit on behalf of
> > > their son. It
> > > claims that the school district never warmed students that
> > > the webcams could
> > > be used to monitor their actions.
> > >
> > > Harriton High School declined to comment on the case,
> > > referring calls to the
> > > Lower Merion School District's public relations manager,
> > > Doug Young.
> > >
> > > "We can categorically state that we are -- and have always
> > > been -- committed
> > > to protecting the privacy of our students," Young told the
> > > Philadelphia
> > > Inquirer. "We have referred this matter to our attorneys
> > > for appropriate
> > > legal action and plan to communicate with parents and
> > > students with more
> > > information as it becomes available."
> > >
> > > Late Thursday, McGinley posted a formal apology to parents
> > > and students on
> > > the district's Web site, attempting to explain the protocol
> > > for activating
> > > the laptops' webcams.
> > >
> > > "District laptops do contain a security feature intended to
> > > track lost,
> > > stolen and missing laptops," McGinley wrote. "The security
> > > feature, which
> > > was disabled today, was installed to help locate a laptop
> > > in the event it
> > > was reported lost, missing or stolen so that the laptop
> > > could be returned to
> > > the student."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <vision2020-request at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020-request@moscow.com>>
> > > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 11:20 AM
> > > Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 44, Issue 121
> > >
> > >
> > > > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
> > > > vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
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> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
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> >
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> >
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> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> > > more specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: One Way to Save the State Lots
> > > and Lots of Money
> > > > (Donovan Arnold)
> > > > 2. Re: Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> > > Bicycle/Pedestrian Accidents &
> > > > Code (Donovan Arnold)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:15:01 -0800 (PST)
> > > > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One Way to Save the State
> > > Lots and Lots of
> > > > Money
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
> > > Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>>
> > > > Message-ID: <374708.57433.qm at web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=374708.57433.qm@web44703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > >
> > > > Marcy PhD,
> > > > ?
> > > > Judging from your prior lectures on the V, and limited
> > > original content,
> > > > my posts are not to be read by you, for the sake of
> > > your insanity and
> > > > inability to understand tongue in cheek posts; which
> > > 90% of my posts
> > > > contain (charcter flaw I know).
> > > > ?
> > > > There is nothing more drab and unproductive than a
> > > poster like Marcy,
> > > > PhD,?that simply?lecures endlessly?and parroting
> > > exactly what everyone
> > > > else is saying and thinking with no sense of humor
> > > and/or originality, no
> > > > new points, just volumes of the SSSS (Same Subject
> > > Same S***) piled higher
> > > > and deeper.
> > > > ?
> > > > Marcy PhD, try?lecturing something new, interesting,
> > > constructive, or
> > > > thought provoking instead of copying and pasting
> > > everyone else's posts and
> > > > putting your name on it.
> > > > Your should exercise?YOUR freedom of speech, not your
> > > neighbors.
> > > > ?
> > > > Your Friend,
> > > > ?
> > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One Way to Save the State
> > > Lots and Lots of Money
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:49 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thursday 18 February 2010 13:51:38 Donovan Arnold
> > > wrote:
> > > >> Not wasting $60 million???
> > > >
> > > > First, from whom did those sixty million dollars come?
> > > After the
> > > > recent Risch rush to regressive revenue raising,
> > > changing from richer
> > > > to poorer tax sources, it's likely that those who lost
> > > the most to
> > > > their new taxation also stand to lose the most
> > > economic opportunity
> > > > to their future lack of educational resources
> > > traditionally supplied.
> > > > So, who, exactly, is entitled to judge wastefulness of
> > > these dollars?
> > > > ?
> > > >> Of course,?Donovan, would?think this is a great
> > > idea. Why?
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps because Donovan's thinking is of a meager and
> > > insubstantial
> > > > sort, insufficiently well-connecting the relevant
> > > relations among the
> > > > parties and facts of the situation? Or maybe Donovan
> > > is in a vocal
> > > > mood, wondering if he can yet again stir the
> > > Vision2020 conversation.
> > > >
> > > >> Because 16-19 year olds cannot listen to
> > > adults?and already know
> > > >> everything. If you don't believe me, just ask
> > > them. They are the
> > > >> experts on every subject. They already know far
> > > more than their
> > > >> parents, grandparents, and the rest of world,
> > > combined. :P
> > > >
> > > > Sometimes good communication among parents and
> > > children allows a good
> > > > transition from parental household to the child's
> > > emancipation. Other
> > > > times, not. Comments have been made for generations
> > > through eons,
> > > > from the ancients onward. Some were notable, as this
> > > from Samuel
> > > > Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain):
> > > >
> > > > "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so
> > > ignorant I could
> > > > hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I
> > > got to be
> > > > twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man
> > > had learned in
> > > > seven years."
> > > >
> > > >> Putting teenagers out on their own, IMHO, would be
> > > the best way of
> > > >> getting them to?learn about the real world, that
> > > they don't know
> > > >> everything, and their parents might not be such
> > > the blundering
> > > >> idiots that survived only on chance and charity
> > > that they thought
> > > >> they were, and might be worth listening to.
> > > >
> > > > Shoving a non-swimming kid into the deep end of a pool
> > > is rude, crude,
> > > > uncouth, and perpetuates the ignorance one wishes
> > > education to erase.
> > > > Putting unprepared teenagers, without their majority
> > > legal rights,
> > > > out into the world is dangerous and risky for kids and
> > > parents alike.
> > > >
> > > > Wouldn't it be great if the kids got swimming lessons,
> > > and the parents
> > > > got parenting lessons? Adult basic education has a
> > > place in society.
> > > >
> > > >> So, I support on their 17th birthday, putting them
> > > out on the
> > > >> doorstep with a?sack of clothes, a bag of Idaho
> > > grown?potatoes, a
> > > >> condom, and?their Ipod to give them the
> > > opportunity to?show the
> > > >> world how dumb it is and how profoundly
> > > intellectually advanced and
> > > >> gifted they are.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of supporting the better interests of the
> > > children's welfare,
> > > > and better long-term relations among parents and
> > > children a few years
> > > > later, what you are supporting is curmudgeonly
> > > self-entertainment of
> > > > the sort shown in the editorial cartoon of Dick
> > > Cheney, in pajamas
> > > > and bathrobe, sitting in a chair aiming the TV clicker
> > > at the set
> > > > during the winter Olympics, yelling "When is the
> > > "#@$%&^"
> > > > waterboarding competition?" In other words, torture as
> > > entertainment.
> > > >
> > > > If the practice of turning kids loose for a year
> > > became widespread,
> > > > don't you suppose that some of those kids who didn't
> > > talk with their
> > > > parents might talk with each other? And perhaps find
> > > ways to show
> > > > their displeasure at their ill-treatment? How about
> > > nocturnal
> > > > guerrilla spud-gun attacks through some well-deserving
> > > living room
> > > > windows? Has the Homeland Security Office in your
> > > neighborhood
> > > > considered whether alternative parenting strategies
> > > might prevent
> > > > tuber terrorists expressing their disappointment at
> > > being kicked out
> > > > without so much as a GED to attach to a fast-food job
> > > application?
> > > >
> > > >> On their 18th birthday they can return provided
> > > they sign a
> > > >> contract not to do drugs, to shut up until they
> > > are?23, listen to
> > > >> their parents and obey them, show up for school
> > > every day, and
> > > >> study as hard as they can. : )
> > > >
> > > > Donovan, the market for dysfunctional families appears
> > > well-supplied
> > > > already, so adding highly unlikely, not to say,
> > > fantasy, contractual
> > > > obligations to these situational tragedies is akin to
> > > adding empty
> > > > calories to silly-salads of unlikely mixed
> > > ingredients.
> > > >
> > > >> Do this and you will get your $60 million worth of
> > > education out of
> > > >> them their senior year.
> > > >
> > > > The worth of an education is not measured in a year's
> > > performance, but
> > > > rather in a lifetime of achievement.
> > > >
> > > >> Otherwise, they are largely a waste of time and
> > > you might as well???
> > > >> pay teachers to educate a brick wall, they are at
> > > least better? ???
> > > >> listeners
> > > >
> > > > Believe it or not, Donovan, the important active
> > > components in the
> > > > education process exist between students' ears, not
> > > just teachers'.
> > > > Amazingly, students can learn in spite of their
> > > teachers, though what
> > > > they learn may be debatable. Coordinating the two is
> > > desirable.
> > > >
> > > > While more attention to the educational and parental
> > > transitioning of
> > > > kids to young adulthood may be needed, kicking kids
> > > out of childhood
> > > > homes without appropriate sustaining connections is
> > > counterproductive
> > > > to everyone.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.???
> > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ???http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> <http://www.fsr.net/>? ? ? ?
> > ? ? ? ? ? ?
> > > ???
> > > > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> > > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:20:11 -0800 (PST)
> > > > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2008@yahoo.com>>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> > > Bicycle/Pedestrian
> > > > Accidents & Code
> > > > To: Art Deco <deco at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>>,
> > > Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>>
> > > > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> > > > Message-ID: <983749.76694.qm at web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=983749.76694.qm@web44706.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > >
> > > > Ted,
> > > > ?
> > > > Just?mow their asses over when they step out of their
> > > car. Call is carma.
> > > > J/k :P
> > > > ?
> > > > Your Friend,
> > > > ?
> > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=starbliss@gmail.com>>
> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Sidewalk/Crosswalk
> > > Bicycle/Pedestrian
> > > > Accidents & Code
> > > > To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>>
> > > > Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 7:07 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what further charges could be made
> > > against the driver of the
> > > > car who struck these pedestrians in the crosswalk.?
> > > But those operating
> > > > cars and trucks are in effect in control of what can
> > > be described as a
> > > > weapon that can easily kill... The casual often
> > > distracted or careless
> > > > attitude of many drivers as they assume control over
> > > the safety and lives
> > > > of others on highways, streets, sidewalks and
> > > crosswalks, is alarming.?
> > > > The death toll on the highways justifies the alarm.?
> > > And given cars and
> > > > trucks cross sidewalks at "drive-ins," sidewalks are
> > > not as safe as some
> > > > might assume...
> > > > ?
> > > > As is obvious,?the close proximity of those using
> > > human powered
> > > > transportation (which includes those walking)
> > > with?cars and trucks in
> > > > operation on streets and highways, sidewalks
> > > and?crosswalks,?is a
> > > > dangerous situation,?regardless of what laws are in
> > > place.? But current
> > > > laws covering these situations appears seriously
> > > flawed.?
> > > > ?
> > > > The Boise City Council, and the Idaho legislature
> > > (read info on this
> > > >
> >
> here:?http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-February/068600.html?),
> > >
> > > > recently addressed this problem focusing on changes to
> > > bicycle related
> > > > code, inspired in part by the recent deaths of several
> > > bicyclists in
> > > > Idaho.? But I think the law should be crafted broadly
> > > to cover what might
> > > > be termed, "human powered transportation,"
> > > pedestrians, bicycles,
> > > > skateboards, roller blades, runners, and so forth.?
> > > > ?
> > > > 1)? All persons using human powered transportation on
> > > sidewalks (with
> > > > drive-ins for vehicles) and crosswalks, and of course
> > > bicycles on streets
> > > > and highways sharing the road with cars and trucks,
> > > should be required to
> > > > carry artificial light (viewable front, back and
> > > sides) between sunset and
> > > > sunrise.? The current Idaho code only indicates
> > > bicycles and motor
> > > > vehicles?should carry artificial light, as far as I
> > > have?determined.? But
> > > > runners, skateboarders, rollerbladers, etc. can
> > > sometimes be moving faster
> > > > than bicycles, while their movement might be more
> > > sudden and erratic; and
> > > > are subject to just as much risk from a collision with
> > > a car or truck in
> > > > crosswalks or on sidewalks with drive-ins..? Why are
> > > they not required to
> > > > carry artificial light at night?? I don't perceive any
> > > good reason why
> > > > they should not be required... If the pedestrians in
> > > the recent
> > > > car/pedestrian accident were carrying light (the
> > > accident was at night, it
> > > > appears, "2104
> > > > hours"), the accident might have been avoided.
> > > >
> > > > 2)? Given the advantages cars and trucks have in speed
> > > (even in 25 mph
> > > > zones cars are often?moving much faster than most all
> > > using human powered
> > > > transportation), mass and lighting capability, over
> > > those using human
> > > > powered transportation, and the odds of serous
> > > injuries to those hit while
> > > > using human powered transportation, it seems
> > > reasonable to craft the law
> > > > to assign extra responsibility to drivers of motor
> > > vehicles to take extra
> > > > "due care" that a crosswalk or sidewalk is not
> > > occupied, or in a second or
> > > > two about to be occupied, by a person using human
> > > powered transportation.?
> > > > ?
> > > > I am not saying that the law should always blame the
> > > driver of a motor
> > > > vehicle if they hit someone using human powered
> > > transportation in a
> > > > crosswalk or sidewalk; but cars and trucks have
> > > lighting capability that
> > > > should always at night be able to illuminate a
> > > sidewalk or crosswalk to
> > > > allow seeing someone.? And if the?visibility of the
> > > crosswalk or sidewalk
> > > > is so poor that it is difficult to determine whether
> > > these areas are in
> > > > use, the motor vehicle driver should?assume extra
> > > caution when crossing a
> > > > crosswalk or sidewalk.? Even during daylight, if a
> > > driver of a car or
> > > > truck cannot be sure, due to the view of the whole
> > > crosswalk being
> > > > blocked, for example, by a large truck in an adjacent
> > > lane, that a
> > > > crosswalk or sidewalk is not occupied, the driver
> > > should slow or stop till
> > > > they can be sure the crosswalk is not occupied.
> > > > ?
> > > > The speed of motor vehicles often makes avoiding an
> > > impending collision
> > > > much more difficult for those using human powered
> > > transportation, thus the
> > > > increased responsibility that should be aimed at
> > > drivers of cars and
> > > > trucks to take extra "due care" they are not
> > > endangering the public.
> > > > ?
> > > > As to how the code should be written to address these
> > > issues, the legal
> > > > eagles have the expertise...
> > > > ------------------------------------------
> > > > Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
> > > > ?
> > > > On 2/16/10, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I hope that more serious charges than inattentive
> > > driving are brought and
> > > > vigorously pursued.?
> > > > ?
> > > > How many more of these incidents are going to occur
> > > before the MPD and the
> > > > city attorney decide that traffic law enforcement
> > > needs a lot more
> > > > attention and vigor?
> > > > ?
> > > > Wayne A. Fox
> > > > 1009 Karen Lane
> > > > PO Box 9421
> > > > Moscow, ID? 83843
> > > > ?
> > > > waf at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> > <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=waf@moscow.com>
> > > > 208 882-7975
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Stephanie Kalasz
> > > > To: v2020
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:17 AM
> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] MPD Press Release
> > > >
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > MOSCOW POLICE DEPARTMENT
> > > > 118 East 4th Street
> > > > Moscow, Idaho 83843
> > > > Tel: 208-882-COPS??? Fax: 208-882-4020
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PRESS RELEASE
> > > > ?
> > > > February 15, 2010
> > > > ?
> > > > On Sunday, February 14, 2010, at 2104 hours, Moscow
> > > Police, Fire and
> > > > Volunteer Ambulance Service were dispatched to a
> > > traffic accident with
> > > > injuries at the intersection of Sixth and Asbury
> > > Streets. Whitcom dispatch
> > > > advised three pedestrians were struck by a vehicle at
> > > this location. ?
> > > > ?
> > > > Officers observed two women on the north sidewalk in a
> > > prone position
> > > > being attended to by two males upon their arrival.?
> > > These women were
> > > > identified as Rachel Price (W/F 19 years old of
> > > Moscow) and Ericka Brown
> > > > W/F 18 year old of Moscow).? Rachel Price complained
> > > of head and elbow
> > > > injuries.? Ericka Brown complained of lower back and
> > > hip injuries.? The
> > > > male attending to Brown, Ryan Stewart (W/M 18 year old
> > > of Pullman) stated
> > > > he had also been struck but did not require medical
> > > attention at this
> > > > time.
> > > > ?
> > > > Officers determined a Silver 1993 Toyota Camry driven
> > > by Travis Hartshorn
> > > > (W/M 20 years old of Moscow) was driving east on 6th
> > > Street.? Hartshorn
> > > > attempted to turn north (left) on Asbury when he
> > > struck the three
> > > > pedestrians who were walking west in the marked
> > > crosswalk along the north
> > > > side of 6th Street at Asbury.? Brown and Price were
> > > stuck by the front of
> > > > the Toyota as it was turning. Both Brown and Price
> > > come into contact with
> > > > the hood and windshield of the Toyota before being
> > > ejected off onto the
> > > > roadway.? Stewart stated his left leg was clipped by
> > > the left front of the
> > > > Toyota at the same time it struck the two women.
> > > > ?
> > > > Rachel Price and Ericka Brown were transported to
> > > Gritman Medical Center
> > > > by Moscow Volunteer Ambulance.? Travis Hartshorn was
> > > cited and released
> > > > for inattentive driving and failure to provide current
> > > proof of liability
> > > > insurance.
> > > > ?
> > > > Please contact A.C. Duke at 208-310-9254 for
> > > additional information.
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.???
> > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ???http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> <http://www.fsr.net/>? ? ? ?
> > ? ? ? ? ? ?
> > > ???
> > > > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
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> > > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > =======================================================
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> >
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 44, Issue 121
> > > > *******************************************
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since
> > > 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net
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> > > =======================================================
> > >
> >
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> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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