[Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Tue Dec 28 14:44:02 PST 2010 

I'm not up to speed on this thread but I did notice that the links you
provided did not work -- at least for me. Also, Sunil is no longer
working as a defense attorney. Maybe they'll get someone less
competent. Only kidding!

One more thing. I think if we are going to err it is better to err on
the side of defense. Thus, having defense attorneys who are better
than prosecutors is good -- if in fact that's the case (I'm not at all
qualified to say). And whatever our faults as a country, I doubt not
putting enough people in jail is one of them. We have more folks per
person in jail and prison than any society in the history of the
world. Likely the main problem is that we put the wrong people in jail
(say, drug criminals; likely jail should be saved for violent
criminals).

I'll try to read up on this and if I have something of substance to
add to the debate I will. Again, it is hard for me to think I'm
qualified to talk about these sorts of issues. I've spoken with Sunil
off list on a few occasions about these issues -- the Sitler case, for
instance -- and came away thinking that it was more complicated than
it seemed to be. But you seem to know more about these issues than I
do.

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
> This started out as a discussion of the appropriate of Hursh's sentence for
> rape.
>
> I will continue that after these remarks:
>
> 1.    Despite their rhetoric, I challenge both Ramalingam and Kovis to show
> that any thing I have posted in this thread is contrary to known facts.  I
> won't dwell on the misrepresentations and falsehoods of others. I purposely
> included the repository link several times so that those interested could
> check the factual matters therein.
>
> 2.    Competent defense counsel are an indispensible part of the criminal
> justice system.  In my opinion both Kovis and Ramalingam are very competent
> defense attorneys.  The problem for the public is that present their skills,
> especially courtroom skills, greatly exceed that of the prosecutor's
> office.  This creates a disadvantage for the public in the advocate system.
>
>
> Both Kovis and Ramalingam argue that the rape sentence is appropriate given
> the guilty plea, arguing that this was just sex between consenting partners,
> and therefore prison time or further penalties are not warranted regardless
> of the ages and the circumstances involved.
>
> Had this been an isolated case in the defendant Hursh's life, I would agree
> that prison time would not be appropriate if other reasonable penalties,
> sanctions, and rehabilitative remedies could be applied.
>
> However, while the rape charge was being adjudicated (for what seems a
> longer than necessary time), Hursh was charged with the five offenses in
> CR-2009-0005406.  He plead guilty to some of these charges, and was
> sentenced to two to five years in the penitentiary.  The judge retained
> jurisdiction, and Hursh was sent to and completed a short term, most likely
> at Cottonwood and probation.  The penalty in the rape case was decided after
> the incarceration part of the CR-2009-0005406 sentence was completed.
>
> Here's the problem:  The crimes plead guilty to in CR-2009-0005406 occurred
> and sentencing disposed of while the rape case was still being adjudicated.
> The rape case was filed shortly after the disposition (guilty) of a
> malicious destruction of property case.  This does not instill confidence in
> me of the character or the propensity to respect the law of Hursh.  On trial
> for one felony just over month after being found guilty of another crime,
> Hursh is charged with a further felony and other crimes.
>
> This is not the portrait of a choir boy, but unfortunately a troubling
> picture of someone with criminal tendencies.  Therefore I think that the
> sentence of a $305 fine, 30 days discretionary jail time, and a withheld
> judgment is too light.
>
> Repeating, I think the sentence too light:
>
> So is $305 fine, five years of probation, a withheld judgment, and 30 days
> of discretionary jail time going to:
>
> 1.    Deter Hursh from further crimes?
> 2.    Make the public safer from further offences?
> 3.    Offer rape and other serious crime victims the assurance that
> reporting the offense(s) and being subjected to the trauma of court process
> is worth the probable outcome in the criminal justice system?
> 4.    Motivate law enforcement to expend the effort to work up winnable
> cases?
> 5.    Rehabilitate the now habitually criminal defendant?
>
> I doubt it.
>
>
> This is not an issue where agreement can reached by appealing just to facts,
> values, and method.
>
> There is no established, agreed upon method for deciding the "right"
> sentence.  That's why we have judges.  But judges are not infallible.  Some
> are bright, conscientious, concerned, and work very hard at their positions;
> some are naive, lazy, and are isolated from the public and reality to the
> extent they do not appear to understand the consequences of their actions.
> This is just not a reflection on second district judges.  I spent a lot of
> time observing the court system in the first district.  There were some very
> fine judges there, and some in my opinion who were not suited for that
> position, and grave errors were made and horrible injustices occurred.
>
> No one can accurately predict the future behavior of another, especially of
> those who have committed serious crimes.  There is no known magic,
> guaranteed rehabilitation remedy which insures that criminal propensities
> will be held in check.  Contrary to the holdings of many defense counsel, I
> believe that when there is a reasonable question of probable further risk to
> the public, the public's interest deserves the highest consideration.
>
> I hope that we do not see Hursh's name in further adverse proceedings in the
> repository.  But I have no confidence that this will be the case, just as it
> was with James Curtis Leonard.
>
> W.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> To: vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System
> Wayne,
>
> Quit crawling on your belly, you dishonest and dishonorable colostomy bag,
> before you question my integrity. The bulk of my work in criminal defense
> was as a public defender, which did little for my financial bottom line. I
> sure didn't make a pot of money doing it.  Latah County pays its two main
> PDs a flat rate, no matter how hard they work or how many cases they have.
> If anything, it was in my financial interest to have fewer cases charged, or
> to do less work on each case I was appointed to, so that I could collect the
> same amount and do more private work.  But what does someone like you care
> about facts? The next time you honestly discuss these issues will be the
> first.
>
> And since I am not currently practicing law, I have nothing to gain by what
> I'm saying here. I doubt either judge in Latah County loses any time on this
> listserve in any case.
>
> I referred to the misdemeanor from 2009, before the felonies to which he
> pled at the same time. That comprised his history before the next two
> events, at least in Tom's post. Having now scrolled all the way to the
> bottom of his page on the repository, the only other case of note is a
> reckless driving. I don' t know the facts of that charge, and I don't know
> if he indeed drove recklessly or was overcharged. I only know he pled to an
> infraction in the end. Again, the past as it shows up on the repository
> would not have led to a prison sentence. No, I don't think his speeding
> violations are serious.
>
> Tom, it's the same statute whether it's stat or forceful rape; there are
> just different subsections. That doesn't tell you anything. I know that the
> law says there's no consensual sex with someone under 18. Isn't that a legal
> fiction? Are you seriously telling me that someone under 18 is incapable of
> deciding for himself or herself if they wish to have sex? Is that law some
> sacred thing? If yes, then shouldn't every male having sex with his underage
> girlfriend go to prison for as long as the guy who breaks into a house and
> rapes someone forcefully? There's no difference, right? Or are thinking
> people able to discern a difference?
>
> If so, are the laws that criminalize homosexuality or smoking weed equally
> sacred?
>
> Sunil
>
> ________________________________
> From: deco at moscow.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:48:37 -0800
> CC: alford at dnews.com; lrozen at dnews.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System
>
> Sunil writes:
>
> "Yes, Hursh has a misdemeanor. "
>
> How very dishonestly misleading!
>
> https://www.idcourts.us/repository/caseHistory.do?roaDetail=yes&schema=LATAH&county=Latah&partySeq=87230&displayName=Hursh%2C+Hunter+Martin
> Count up the felonies.
>
> It's one thing to argue on the basis of the facts, it's quite something
> different to be less than candid about the facts themselves and apparently
> the clear definition of rape in IC 18-6101.
>
> After you have read the information in the link above form your own opinion
> about the truth of counsel's remarks so far and their integrity.
> I am not attacking the advocate system.  It is the best we can have given
> human error.  But criminal defense counsel make their living from those
> accused of crime.  The more clients they have and the better they are at
> getting the best outcomes for their clients, the more successful and
> prosperous they become.  It is to their economic advantage, if not
> necessity, to have crimes committed -- more crimes mean more opportunities
> for income/success.  It is also to their advantage to curry favor with
> judges under attack by making ill-formed, failure-to-honestly-address the
> issues raised arguments.
>
> w.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> To: vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 4:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System
> Tom,
>
> I don't think you or Wayne knew anything about this case when you started
> posting.  You don't know if this is a case of statutory rape or if it was by
> force, do you?
>
> What basis do you have to say "But in all cases, No means NO!" when in the
> stat rape cases, both parties are saying "Yes?" You're just throwing out a
> cliche that doesn't apply in the stat rape setting.
>
> He's on probation. If he violates probation then he could be sentenced to
> serve the 2-7, and he could also be sentenced on the rape, to anything the
> judge could have sentenced him to when he first appeared for his sentencing.
> That gives the judge a wide range of sentences if he doesn't comply with his
> probation.  The judge will also take into account the sort of violation,
> should one occur. They are not all the same, and do not all deserve
> imposition of a sentence, no matter what some of the shrill voices here
> think.
>
> But why let either facts or ignorance of the facts get in the way of a
> diatribe? Yes, Hursh has a misdemeanor. That's not going to tip the balance
> into a fixed prison term. And having represented him on that charge, yes,
> I'm aware of it.
>
> Of course Wayne only brings things like this up so he can rail about the
> prosecutor's office, our district judge, and then drag Steve Sitler into it.
> Oh, and James Leonard too. The facts are irrelevant to him.
>
> Sunil
>
>> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:09:37 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System
>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>> To: ckovis at turbonet.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com;
>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>> At the age of 17, it would be considered statutary rape.
>>
>> Some jurisdictions, especially Latah County, will take into consideration
>> the relationship between the victim and the accused if there ages are that
>> close, BUT in ALL cases . . .
>>
>> No means NO!
>>
>> We should also look at the history of the accused.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Hunter Martin Hursh
>>
>> September 19, 2009
>>
>> Convicted of burglary, petit theft, and providing false information to an
>> officer
>>
>> Finding: Guilty
>> Disposition date: 07/28/2010
>> Fines/fees: $125.50
>> Jail: 7 years
>> Det Penitentiary: 2 years
>> Indet Penitentiary: 5 years
>>
>> ---------------
>>
>> 05/10/2009 I18-7001 {M} Property-Malicious Injury to Property
>>
>> Finding: Guilty
>> Disposition date: 10/13/2009
>> Fines/fees: $188.00
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> And then there's that inconvenient rape conviction.
>>
>> And he just turned 22.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, December 27, 2010 11:51 am, Chuck Kovis wrote:
>> > So, Tom, if the "guy" was 18 and the girlfriend was 17, how long should
>> > he
>> > be placed in prison for rape? Just curious. Chuck Kovis
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
>> > To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "vision 2020"
>> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>; <alford at dnews.com>; <lrozen at dnews.com>
>> > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 11:35 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System
>> >
>> >
>> >> The guy has a criminal history. Sunil, and he was convicted of rape for
>> >> God's sake!!!!!!!!!!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Probation for rape?????????????
>> >>
>> >> Thank God he wasn't caught with marijuana. We'd have to lock him up
>> >> then,
>> >> huh?
>> >>
>> >> JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH!!!!!
>> >>
>> >> Tom Hansen
>> >> Moscow, Idaho
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, December 27, 2010 10:40 am, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> It seems to me that if people are going to rail and shout, they should
>> >>> at
>> >>> least make sure they report matters correctly. Hursh just came back
>> >>> from
>> >>> a
>> >>> retained jurisdiction, which means he was in the prison system and had
>> >>> to
>> >>> be recommended for probation based upon his performance in the prison
>> >>> system programming. On the Grand Theft charge he was sentenced to two
>> >>> to
>> >>> seven years in the custody of the Idaho Department of Corrections.
>> >>>
>> >>> (Note to the Daily News: He is now on probation, not parole. They are
>> >>> not
>> >>> interchangeable terms.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Having had clients go to prison after convictions of rape or child
>> >>> molestation, I know it's ignorance to argue that those crimes go
>> >>> unpunished in Latah County. I understand that people have their
>> >>> agendas,
>> >>> but that does not excuse falsehoods.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sunil
>> >>>
>> >>>> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 09:45:13 -0800
>> >>>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>> >>>> To: deco at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; alford at dnews.com;
>> >>>> lrozen at dnews.com
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Our Wonderful Latah County Justice System
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A THREE HUNDRED AND FIVE DOLLR fine!!?!?!?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> At Christmas time?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Now, there's a couple taverns that'll just have to go without this
>> >>>> season,
>> >>>> huh?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Any guesses who the judge was?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Welcome to Latah County . . .
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Where RAPE and PEDOPHILIA rank supreme!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Seeya round town. Moscow.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tom Hansen
>> >>>> Moscosw, Idaho
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, December 27, 2010 9:12 am, Art Deco wrote:
>> >>>> > The following appeared in the Daily News Public Records section on
>> >>>> > Saturday:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Sentencings
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Monday -- Hunter Marsh Hursh, 21, of Moscow was convicted of rape.
>> >>>> He
>> >>>> was
>> >>>> > fined $305 and sentenced to five years of probation and 30 days of
>> >>>> > discretionary jail time, and he cannot contact the victim for five
>> >>>> years.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Missing from this report is the fact that Hursh (with an extensive
>> >>>> > criminal history) also received a withheld judgment for this rape.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > WTF?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > A $305 fine and 30 days discretionary jail time? And a withheld
>> >>>> judgment?
>> >>>> > For rape? A felony?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Hursh is no stranger to the criminal justice system. And since the
>> >>>> crime
>> >>>> > of rape [04-28-2009], he has been convicted of other crimes for
>> >>>> which
>> >>>> he
>> >>>> > also received probation. Hursh will soon, if not now, be out in our
>> >>>> > community, free to pursue his habitual ways. Who will be his next
>> >>>> > victims? Is this what we want to happen in our community? Do we
>> >>>> not
>> >>>> care
>> >>>> > enough about each other to take some time and effort to prevent
>> >>>> > this
>> >>>> kind
>> >>>> > of public endangering infamy by the prosecutor and court?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Read Hursh's criminal history and the bumblings of the prosecutor
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> > judges here (Have a barf bag at the ready!):
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > https://www.idcourts.us/repository/caseHistory.do?roaDetail=yes&schema=LATAH&county=Latah&partySeq=87230&displayName=Hursh%2C+Hunter+Martin
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Also you can do a search in the online Daily News [sorted by date]
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> > more information.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > What's going on in Latah County?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Besides inept, public disinterested prosecution and lazy,
>> >>>> soft-headed
>> >>>> > judges, where is the intensive media attention that allows this
>> >>>> > kind
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> > outrage to escape public attention?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Is the Daily News deliberately shielding the horrible ineptitude of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> > prosecutor's office and the lack of judgment of certain judges, or
>> >>>> is
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> > Daily News also practitioners of lassitude and ineptitude? How can
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> > public respond to this continued kind of ineptness and poor
>> >>>> > judgment
>> >>>> in
>> >>>> > the criminal justice system if the media does not cover and comment
>> >>>> upon
>> >>>> > it? Without competent reporting and comment are we doomed to
>> >>>> continue
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> > experience these kinds of outrages ad nauseam?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > And without intensive media coverage where is the general
>> >>>> > deterrence
>> >>>> that
>> >>>> > is allegedly part of the goals of criminal sentencing? How do law
>> >>>> > enforcement personnel feel when they spend much time and effort
>> >>>> working up
>> >>>> > a case only to find it handled in such a horrendously nonchalant
>> >>>> manner by
>> >>>> > the prosecutor and the courts? Over the long term wouldn't this
>> >>>> kind
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> > event be likely to demotivate law enforcement?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > We need competent, public interest motivated reporting, and we need
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> > somehow motivate the prosecutor and court to serve the public
>> >>>> interest
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> > change the inept and lazy out, by recall if necessary.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > And if the local media are not willing to act responsibly, perhaps
>> >>>> it
>> >>>> is
>> >>>> > time to start talking to their advertising clients who bear some
>> >>>> > responsibility for supporting this fifth-rate media arrogance and
>> >>>> careless
>> >>>> > ineptitude about serious crimes taking place and adversely
>> >>>> > effecting
>> >>>> > member of our community.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Wayne A. Fox
>> >>>> > 1009 Karen Lane
>> >>>> > PO Box 9421
>> >>>> > Moscow, ID 83843
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > waf at moscow.com
>> >>>> > 208 882-7975
>> >>>> > =======================================================
>> >>>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> >>>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>>> > =======================================================
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> >>>> change
>> >>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - Unknown
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> =======================================================
>> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>>> =======================================================
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> >> change
>> >> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>> >>
>> >> - Unknown
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =======================================================
>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> =======================================================
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>
>> - Unknown
>>
>>
>
> ________________________________
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
> ======================================================= List services made
> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
> ________________________________
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>

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