[Vision2020] Freedom of expression

[Paul Rumelhart]

Saundra Lund wrote:
> In part, Paul wrote:
> "I think the person that wrote that blurb on that website was hoping for
> this kind of reaction.  They were trolling the people that watch them, and a
> few of them took the bait.  If you don't want trolls to continue trolling,
> then your best bet is to simply ignore them.  Point, laugh, roll your eyes,
> and move on.  If that's all the reaction they get, they'll find someone else
> to bait.  That's the method I've learned that works best after 20+ years of
> interacting in Internet forums."
>
> Honestly, Paul, would that you'd follow your own advice here.  You perhaps
> more than anyone else insisted on feeding the most notorious troll -- "No
> Weatherman" -- to the detriment of the rest of us, and then you subsequently
> offered a rationalization, justification, explanation, defense, or whatever
> of your continued feeding of that troll.  IOW, you took his bait, so he
> continued to post here.
>   

I don't really remember the No Weatherman saga all that well.  I don't 
remember it as some kind of trial, so I probably enjoyed debating with 
him or her.  Anyway, I often don't take my own advice.  I'm imperfect 
like that.  I try to, but sometimes I fall into the same trap I try to 
warn others against.

> So, it would seem that your definition of a troll is highly subjective, and
> that what most of the rest of us considered a troll, you considered worthy
> of feeding.
>
> OTOH, you seem to have a low tolerance of discussion of the bigotry &
> intentionally inflammatory rhetoric that routinely spews from certain
> notorious local church(es) & associated businesses directed at all those who
> don't share their particular flavor of Christianity.
>   

It's not the discussion of bigotry and inflammatory rhetoric I'm 
objecting to, it's what I saw as a push to silence them that prompted me 
to post what I did.  I really only wanted to get my views about freedom 
of expression out there, since in my opinion the NSA's freedom of 
expression was in danger of being stomped on.

> Quite frankly, you seem to have a very peculiar double-standard where you
> seem to think it's OK for you to engage in discussions as much as *you* want
> while at the same time wanting others to *not* have their own interests
> about what they think is worthy of discussion.  I personally find
> discussions of the ugliness that comes out of the Kirk incredibly important;
> you disagree.
>
> And, not only do you disagree, you take it a step further and want to state
> that those of us interested in the religious bigotry that's really the
> hallmark of certain local churches & their businesses don't reeaallllyyy
> value freedom of expression because we don't agree with your take on the
> topic:
> "It's just my opinion that if they really valued freedom of expression then
> they wouldn't be talking about this subject so much.  I do value freedom of
> expression, which is why I'm talking about what my concept of it is here."
>
> Not only is any such implication pure poppycock, it's offensive.  As much as
> you might like to believe otherwise, Paul, you don't have a corner on the
> market of genuine interest in freedom of expression.  You are entitled to
> your opinion, just are those of us who disagree and see the value in
> discussing the routine ugliness that comes out of the Kirk, and that doesn't
> make "us" value freedom of expression any less than you value it.
>   

I can only call it as I see it.  I have never claimed to be infallible.  
I saw what I viewed as a dangerous disregard for a freedom I hold dear, 
so I posted about it.  And if it offended you, tough.  I didn't intend 
for it to offend anyone, but I can't control who finds what offensive.

There is a lot of energy thrown at Christ Church here on this list.  If 
I didn't know some of the members of this church, I'd think they were 
worse than baby-eating Satanists based on what I've seen here.  I never 
have understood why this one church pushes so many buttons here on this 
list.  Why does an opposing viewpoint that people here on the list 
disagree with need such a united front to be brought together to fight 
it?  Aren't they entitled to their own beliefs and opinions?  And aren't 
they entitled to express them as they wish?  And aren't others entitled 
to listen to them and decide, if they become convinced, that they should 
join this church?  What harm is it doing?

I don't find their particular brand of theology any more strange or 
threatening than I do Mormonism or Catholicism, personally.  The only 
real difference I see is that they have a particular flair for pranks 
and rhetoric that seems tailor-made to piss off liberals.  I find this 
to be disheartening and juvenile, possibly because I classify myself as 
a liberal, but I don't see why my view of it should concern them at all.

If we all decided to live and let live, we might actually get along a 
little better.

Paul

> Interesting, though, that that seems to be your take.
>
>
>
> FWIW,
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> ~ Edmund Burke
>
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus
> 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> author.*****
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 8:48 PM
> To: Ted Moffett
> Cc: Vision2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Freedom of expression
>
> Ted Moffett wrote:
>   
>> Two separate responses in body of text below.  This fourth post today 
>> is over the limit for me... so "Good Night," as Ringo Starr sang it:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKugx1sToY
>>
>> On 12/12/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Ted Moffett wrote:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-December/073155.htm
>>>> l
>>>>
>>>> "According to my views on freedom of expression, political 
>>>> correctness is a disease that should be purged from the world."
>>>>
>>>> and earlier:
>>>>
>>>> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-December/073150.htm
>>>> l
>>>>
>>>> "Just point, laugh, roll your eyes, and move on to fight something 
>>>> that isn't just hyperbole."
>>>>
>>>> So after the above advice to "...point, laugh, roll your eyes, and 
>>>> move on..." regarding the New Saint Andrews' website discussion on 
>>>> Vision2020, you later state you want to purge the world of the 
>>>> disease political correctness?  Why not just "...point, laugh, roll 
>>>> your eyes, and move on..." when someone makes a politically correct
>>>>         
> statement?
>   
>>>> Are politically correct statements more harmful to the world than 
>>>> statements suggesting violence and hate, as some have interpreted 
>>>> the statements on the NSA website to imply?
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> I see the point you're making.  I wasn't suggesting that people 
>>> point, laugh, and move on to be politically correct, I was suggesting 
>>> doing that to avoid feeding the trolls.  Which is, really, what they are.
>>>     
>>>       
>> It appears the slippage of language strikes again...
>>
>> I was not saying anyone should "move on to be politically correct."  I 
>> was asking, why object so strenuously to those who make politically 
>> correct statements, if this is what you think some on Vision2020 are 
>> doing, regarding New Saint Andrews' website?  What is the major harm 
>> in someone making a politically correct statement on Vision2020, if 
>> this is truly what is occuring (I am not saying it is...)?
>>
>> Are these statements more harmful than statements that suggest 
>> violence and hate, as some found the statements on the NSA website?  I 
>> understand you do not think there is any real threat implied by the 
>> NSA website, but others perhaps disagree.  What is the major problem 
>> with expressing differing opinions regarding the NSA website?  Maybe 
>> there are more important topics, but Vision2020 often focuses on what 
>> I think are not very important issues.
>>   
>>     
>
> I think that the societal self-censorship of certain topics under the guise
> of political correctness has a negative effect in the long run.  
> It stops the average Joe Public from speaking his mind freely about what he
> perceives to be negative traits of a certain race, creed, or whatever and it
> keeps people from being offended, but Joe has not changed his mind - he's
> just learned to keep his thoughts to himself.  He may harbor a hatred of
> people of a specific type, and may have no simple way of blowing off steam.
> So he has a run-in with one someday, and gets violent.  Or he learns to not
> promote anyone in his company of that type of person, because it's one way
> of getting back at them.  You get the idea.  If there were no societal
> prohibitions about talking about it, he might learn that other people like
> people of that type just fine, and that they are actually really nice,
> usually.  He might even get in a discussion with one that turns into a
> friendship, after the first bit of arguing and name-calling dies down.
>
> Compare this with the supposedly harmful statements on the NSA website.  
> If our bar is so low that that website can trigger cries of "hate speech",
> then a veteran debater can argue that almost any website is offensive to
> somebody.  I'd rather save the phrase to describe things that are undeniably
> hate speech.  What's the harm in having some language like that on their
> website?  People might get a bad impression of Moscow is one reason I've
> heard.  Tough.  We can only control what we do ourselves.  We don't have the
> right to try to censor others.
>
> If people think that there is a real threat on the website, call the police.
> Making threats is against the law.  Just be aware that they have a
> definition of "threat" that the website may fail to meet.
>
> I don't have a problem with people expressing their views.  It's just my
> opinion that if they really valued freedom of expression then they wouldn't
> be talking about this subject so much.  I do value freedom of expression,
> which is why I'm talking about what my concept of it is here.
>
>   
>> Your response suggests you think the NSA website should not be a focus 
>> of discussion to "avoid feeding the trolls."  But in responding on
>> Vision2020 to what you have implied, it seems, is politically correct 
>> criticism regarding NSA, are you feeding those politically correct 
>> "trolls?  You are certainly helping to keep the focus on the NSA 
>> website discussion in this thread, by referencing it in your first 
>> post.
>>   
>>     
>
> I think the person that wrote that blurb on that website was hoping for this
> kind of reaction.  They were trolling the people that watch them, and a few
> of them took the bait.  If you don't want trolls to continue trolling, then
> your best bet is to simply ignore them.  Point, laugh, roll your eyes, and
> move on.  If that's all the reaction they get, they'll find someone else to
> bait.  That's the method I've learned that works best after 20+ years of
> interacting in Internet forums.  It didn't have anything to do with trying
> to suppress the actual point they were trying to make.
>
>   
>> Again, why not just "...point, laugh, roll your eyes..." at the 
>> criticisms of NSA, rather than make more of an issue of it, as you 
>> advised regarding the NSA website?  You think, if I have understood 
>> you correctly, that these criticisms are somehow creating ill will 
>> between NSA and those of differing ideologies.  So I suppose you think 
>> that less criticism of NSA will encourage them to express more 
>> tolerance of "secularists?"  I doubt it.  When an insititution of 
>> higher learning, NSA, frames its mission aggressively against others 
>> who do not share their ideology, to argue this approach should only 
>> arouse a "...point, laugh, roll your eyes..." response, appears to be 
>> an attempt to silence public discussion on substantive issues that 
>> effect many people, which it also appears you cannot be advocating, 
>> given your emphasis on freedom of expression.
>>   
>>     
>
> For one, I don't care if they ever learn to have a better opinion of
> secularists.  Their education on religion is none of my concern.  They can
> go to the grave believing that secularists are out to hunt them down and
> convert them.  I don't really care.  I don't feel the need to make sure that
> everyone agrees with what I say or think like I do.  In fact, I'd hate a
> world like that.  My stance is simple.  Everyone has the right to think
> whatever they want, believe whatever they want, and have whatever view of
> whatever topic they want.  I don't care how horrendous their beliefs or
> views are to others.  I also believe that they have the right to express
> those views however they want, keeping in mind that they don't have the
> right to force others to listen to them, and they don't have the right to
> harm others.  If they want to put on the website that they think that
> secularists probably eat children for breakfast, so what?  If someone goes
> out and beats up a secularist because of it, then the responsibility for
> that action falls on the shoulders of the person that committed that action.
> There are very few cases where I would advocate for censoring their website.
> The text they have on it now doesn't even come close.
>
>   
>> Also, to claim the debate regarding fundamentalist Christianity and 
>> secularism, and the political tactics involved, is not worth public 
>> discussion, is on the face of it, not credible, given the power that 
>> fundamentalist Christianity has over the political system.  Consider 
>> that Idaho is one of the Super DOMA states ( 
>> http://www.danpinello.com/SuperDOMAs.htm ).  There is no doubt that 
>> this law is in part the result of a religious view that NSA shares 
>> with other fundamentalist Christians in Idaho.  And they vote.  As 
>> they did regarding the ridiculous topless ordinance the Moscow City 
>> Council passed.
>>   
>>     
>
> It's not my stance that people shouldn't talk about fundamentalist
> Christianity and the ills they imagine are there.  I just think that people
> that I've been assuming all along are for freedom of expression shouldn't
> get so bent out of shape when something somebody says offends them.  I'm not
> trying to force them to shut up, I really don't care.  
> What did provoke me to write my little diatribe were indications that some
> sort of attempt to silence the NSA people might be coming up.  I
> misinterpreted what Nick said about the Chamber of Commerce, but at the time
> I thought they were advocating for taking the site down.  I also saw
> references to "hate speech", which is a sensitive button of mine.  
> I'd hate for a statement that more or less says "we fight secularism as an
> ideal" to lead to someone being convicted of some sort of "hate crime".
> Stranger things have happened.
>
> All I'm doing is advocating for true freedom of expression.  Let people say
> what they like.  It's better for all of us in the end.
>
>   
>> To state you are not afraid of being physically attacked by anyone 
>> from NSA, nor where you offended, given the rhetoric on their website, 
>> does not address the real influence based on behavior that such 
>> rhetoric has on the local, state and national level, regarding at 
>> least four very important issues (I'll skip the alleged association 
>> with racist groups and the debate regarding Wilson's book "Southern 
>> Slavery As It Was"): gay and women's rights, religious tolerance and 
>> understanding between those of all religions, spiritual worldviews, or 
>> those of no particular persuasion on these matters, and the US pursuit 
>> of the so called "war on terror," which as everyone knows is tainted 
>> with religious prejudice and misunderstandings here in the US and 
>> internationally, by those of differing religions:
>>
>> http://atheism.about.com/od/sarahpalinreligion/tp/SarahPalinReligionSc
>> ience.htm
>> >From website above:
>>
>> In a speech to high school kids at her church, Sarah Palin said:
>> "Pray...that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [our 
>> military men and women] out on a task that is from God. That's what we 
>> have to make sure that we are praying for, that there is a plan and 
>> that that plan is God's plan."
>>   
>>     
>
> I'm all for people discussing these issues.  I'm not for any attempt to get
> the NSA to change their website other than simple pleas that they do so.
> What people are discussing is not the implications of their viewpoints on
> secularism, they are discussing whether or not their text is violent and
> whether or not something should be done about it.  
> Prejudice about religion or lack of religion can be a problem, it's true.
> As long as no one is censoring anyone, then I hope that debate rages along
> nicely.  I just haven't seen much of it on here with regards to this topic.
> I admit, though, that I haven't been following it all that close.  I just
> thought I'd go ahead and elucidate my thoughts on the subject of freedom of
> expression, and hopefully others would put this in perspective.
>
> Paul
>   
>>   
>>     
>>>> "Political correctness" could be defined to suit whatever I want to 
>>>> purge from society.  Advocating purging a point of view is alarming 
>>>> language.  Perhaps you were making a joke of some sort in this 
>>>> comment, and I am missing the joke by taking you literally?
>>>>
>>>> But consider this example:  I define publicly exposing undercover 
>>>> CIA government assassins as a "politically correct" agenda, that 
>>>> must be "purged" to protect the necessary for national security 
>>>> assassinations carried out in secret by the CIA..  Thus in purging 
>>>> political correctness in this example, I am supporting government 
>>>> secrecy regarding CIA assassinations.  It might be justifed to purge 
>>>> somone planning to expose undercover CIA assassins, to protect 
>>>> national security.
>>>>
>>>> Some examples of what might be reasonably defined as "politically 
>>>> correct" can be viewed as idealistic ethically laudable behaviors, 
>>>> the sort of behaviors it seems you would aprove given your support 
>>>> for Wikileaks.
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> I think you are taking me too literally.  It's not politically 
>>> correct statements, which is basically any statement not involving 
>>> race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation in a negative light, 
>>> that I object to.  It's people feeling like they cannot make 
>>> politically incorrect statements because of some sort of societal 
>>> pressure that I think is a problem.  When I said that I think 
>>> "political correctness" is a problem, I was referring to the very 
>>> idea that there are things that we cannot talk about because they 
>>> might offend somebody, which is an idea I object to.  Not talking 
>>> about any one of these areas as a society helps only in the short 
>>> term.  Real discussion is what heals wounds, societal pressure towards
>>>       
> silence only makes them fester.
>   
>>> You're example above referring to political assassination isn't the 
>>> sort of political correctness I was referring to, but while we are on 
>>> the subject, I would say that keeping information about the 
>>> whereabouts and covers for assassins should be kept secret.  However, 
>>> the fact that the US government is sanctioning assassinations should 
>>> be out in the open so that the American people can let their 
>>> congressmen know whether or not they think the US should be engaging in
>>>       
> such behavior.
>   
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>> I agree that political correctness can be used to censor, of course, 
>> can create a climate of fear that blocks freedom of expression, and 
>> can impede Democracy and the power of the Fourth Estate.  Look at what 
>> happened to Bill Maher, or the US media coverage of the build up to 
>> the invasion of Iraq, especially, a shameful and frightening example 
>> of media seized by a form of patriotic political correctness that kept 
>> the US public woefully misinformed.  The example of the firing of Imus 
>> for the "nappy-headed hos" comment some argue is an example of the 
>> abuse of political correctness.  I wonder if you think Imus should 
>> have been fired for what some claim was an explictly racist comment?
>> I recall Imus meeting the women basketball players he referred to in 
>> this manner, where he apologized, and they asserted they were deeply 
>> offended by his statement.
>>
>> I knew that you were not referring to the sort of political 
>> correctness I used as an example, regarding CIA assassins.  I was 
>> simply saying that advocating purging something from society, like 
>> political correctness, is alarming language, that can be twisted to 
>> suit nefarious agendas.  I was making no statement on the 
>> appropriateness of exposing CIA assassins, only using this as an 
>> example.  My example was probably not a good one to make my point.
>> But given you stated I was taking you too literally, I'll not 
>> construct a better example.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
>>>>
>>>> On 12/12/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> I just thought I'd weigh in here with a little diatribe of my own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the freedom of an individual or group of individuals to 
>>>>> express themselves is sacrosanct.  The freedom to express your 
>>>>> opinion should be held dearly by everyone, if they want to live in a
>>>>>           
> free society.
>   
>>>>> There are very few limits that should be placed on speech, in my 
>>>>> humble opinion, most having to do with statements of facts and not 
>>>>> opinions.  I agree with libel laws, for example.  On the other 
>>>>> hand, I disagree with obscenity laws probably universally.  If 
>>>>> groups want to get together and form islands of information in 
>>>>> which certain ideas are suppressed, I'm for that, too, as long as 
>>>>> other options exist.  For example, if someone wanted to create a 
>>>>> separate internet targeted at children that enforced it's own 
>>>>> censorship, I would be OK with that.  If parents were OK with their 
>>>>> kids surfing unrestrained on the Big Bad Internet, then they should 
>>>>> be allowed to do so without repercussions if their child ends up on 
>>>>> a porn site or a site about Islam or whatever your favorite boogey man
>>>>>           
> is.
>   
>>>>> As an aside, this is why I support Wikileaks.  Our government works 
>>>>> *for us*.  They should only have secrets in very narrowly defined 
>>>>> areas for very specific reasons.  And no, "they shouldn't see it 
>>>>> because it will make our leaders look like hypocrites" does not 
>>>>> qualify.  The people behind Wikileaks are exposing secrets that 
>>>>> shouldn't be secrets in a reasonable world.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to my views on freedom of expression, political 
>>>>> correctness is a disease that should be purged from the  world.  
>>>>> Instead of helping, it just sweeps the problem under the rug.  If a 
>>>>> person hates blacks because of an incident when they were younger, 
>>>>> or because they just don't like people who are "different", then 
>>>>> they should be free to express that opinion.  Others will likely 
>>>>> disagree, and a dialogue will probably ensue, but this is healthy.  
>>>>> This tendency by people to shun these sorts of debates is unhealthy for
>>>>>           
> society (in my opinion, anyway).
>   
>>>>> In an effort to totally ostracize myself from the community, I 
>>>>> might as well go ahead and add that I also disagree with some of 
>>>>> the child pornography laws as they exist on the books, as they 
>>>>> relate to freedom of expression.  These laws have been expanded so 
>>>>> much under the guise of "save the children" that they are insane.  
>>>>> In Australia, one man was arrested for having downloaded a drawing 
>>>>> of Bart Simpson engaged in having sex, and was convicted under that 
>>>>> countries child pornography laws.  In Iowa, another man was 
>>>>> arrested for possessing manga comics from Japan that contained 
>>>>> drawings of children having sex.  Was Bart Simpson actually hurt by 
>>>>> this?  Or the fictional Japanese schoolgirl?  I can understand the 
>>>>> prohibition against possession of real child porn (because it 
>>>>> creates a market for such things) though I don't agree with it 
>>>>> completely.  I think it should be a prohibition against
>>>>> *distribution* of child pornography, not simply "possession", if 
>>>>> for no other reason than people might be likely to hand it over to 
>>>>> law enforcement without the fear of going to jail themselves.  
>>>>> Prohibition against "virtual porn" is crazy and needs to be fought.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what does this mean to us?  It means that if something offends 
>>>>> you, you should suck it up and learn to live with it.  Grow some 
>>>>> thicker skin and see if you can find a sense of humor on sale 
>>>>> somewhere.  Freedom of expression, if that's a concept you agree 
>>>>> with, has to trump "freedom from being offended".  The minute you 
>>>>> allow the idea that some things are just too horrible to be read or 
>>>>> viewed, then you've just thrown the concept of freedom of 
>>>>> expression out the window.  Now you'll have a slippery slope where 
>>>>> the definition of "too horrible" tends to match the ideals of the
>>>>>           
> people who are in power at any given moment.
>   
>>>>> The odd irony for people who really believe in freedom of 
>>>>> expression is that they most often end up defending things that 
>>>>> they might vehemently disagree with.  They defend the speech of 
>>>>> people they simply don't like or don't agree with, and they defend 
>>>>> speech they are personally offended by because the speech that everyone
>>>>>           
> agrees with is not threatened.
>   
>>>>> Very little offends me, but even if I was offended by the NSA 
>>>>> website, which I wasn't, then I would still be fighting for their 
>>>>> right to be as inane with their metaphors as they wish.  I applaud 
>>>>> them, really, for not rushing to change the page in an orgy of
>>>>>           
> political correctness.
>   
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>     
>>>       
>>   
>>     
>
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