[Vision2020] Keim on the Frequency of discussing Christ Church and NSA on Vision 2020

[Joe Campbell]

I did a brief amount of research, checking out the frequency that
folks on Vision 2020 talk about Christ Church or NSA and it is clear
that Darrell Keim has over exaggerated that frequency, at least when
it comes to RECENT discussion on Vision 2020. It might be the case
that the topic was discussed more often a while ago but in terms of
the NOVEMBER topics, the discussion is limited at best. The funny
thing is, next to me the person who discussed CC or NSA the most on
this list in November was Darrell! In short, this is not a topic
discussed much any more by anyone other than myself. Even in my case,
I mentioned CC and NSA in the last month less than 30% of the time,
and the vast majority of those cases were in the discussions I had
with Darrell. If Darrell and I had not debated about the issue, there
would have been fewer than 10 passing references to CC or NSA during
the month of November. I'm not sure of the total number of posts but
it is in the hundreds.

Again, this is just a cross section but it illustrates that not only
were Darrell's continual assertions about Vision 2020s obsession with
CC and NSA (see below) unsupported, something he at no time tried to
fix by doing some research of his own, they are in fact, at least with
respect to recent postings, flat-out incorrect. I challenge Darrell to
come up with some RECENT data to support his claims (no use rehearsing
the past, as Darrell has said) or to admit that in fact his claims
were incorrect and there was NO reason for him to raise a fuse in the
first place.

First I'll list the data followed by some analysis followed by the
assertions that Darrell has made which are refuted by the data. I am
not a social scientist, so if someone else has recent findings that go
against my claims, please bring them forth. Prejudicial claims by
conservatives to the contrary don't count as DATA, by the way. Again,
I choose the most recent month (took me about 4 hours this morning to
compile the data by the way) but if someone else wants to investigate
another RECENT month, please do so.

Again, I just checked November in part because this was a recent month
where the issue of CC/NSA explicitly came up. I lost count in my case,
so the number of 15 is an estimate. But it is clear by looking at my
postings this month that far fewer than half of the time did I talk
about CC/NSA. And I am willing to admit my own obsession with CC/NSA.
That is pretty well known! In some of the cases the discussion was
really about whether I should talk about CC/NSA and in most cases I
discuss topics that are not directly related to CC/NSA. In the other
case, the numbers refer to even passing references, not the explicit
mention of "Christ Church" or "Douglas Wilson" or "New Saint Andrews."
Thus, when a name or intended reference was mentioned, even if in
passing in a post about a completely different topic, I counted it.

Joe Campbell			15/52
Art Deco			5/43
Keely Mix			5/33
Tom Hansen			4/105
Nick Gier			2/8
Moscow Cares			0/15
Saundra Lund			0/14
Andreas Schou		0/12
Debi Smith			0/9
Carl Westberg			0/8
Bill London			0/5
Ralph Nielsen			0/4
Rosemary Huskey		0/2

This is a list of some of the folks that we might expect to be talking
about CC/NSA. Note that in Keely's case, the 5 instances include 2
where there was merely a passing reference. In each of Tom's 4
instances there is NO explicit reference to either CC or NSA. Here are
some conservatives/moderates worth noting:

Darrell Keim			8/15
Gary Crabtree			0/26
Roger Falen			0/26
Dan Carscallen		0/5
Jeff Harkins			0/3

Again, notice that Darrell comes in number 2, next to me, in terms of
posts discussing Christ Church and/or NSA for the month of November!
It can't be the frequency of our discussion that disturbs him
otherwise he'd have been better off NOT offering any criticisms to
begin with.


There were 3 posts that got the lion's share of CC/NSA attention.

Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow’s Muscular Christianity
11 posts, though 2 were off topic. Joe (3); Darrell (2); Nick; Keely;
Wayne (Art Deco); Tom. All of these are noted above.

Curiosity Question
21 posts, some of which (Roger's insult, my response, Tom's apology)
were off topic. Joe (9); Darrell (8); Tom (2); Roger; Keely. All of
these are noted above.

Health Education: A Conspiracy?
22 posts; only 6 reference CC or NSA; 3 of these were noted above.

That gives us 42 posts for the month of December, the vast majority of
which were made AFTER Darrell made his initial accusation (Nov 28) and
8 of which were made by Darrell himself.


Here are some of Darrell's recent assertions about Vision 2020 and its
obsession with CC/NSA, which seem to have been refuted:
“The churches and schools which you hint at below have been well
analyzed on this list.” (Nov 28 12:25:29)

“… this topic has been well discussed on this list …” (Nov 28 14:32:45)

“Unfortunately, this listserv seems like a one note instrument when
almost everything is linked to that same topic.” (Nov 28 16:42:16)

“It just doesn’t seem like v2020 benefits from having the topic come
up so often.” (Nov 28 18:10:08)

“And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA criticism on
V2020. I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on v2020.  Too
recap: I initially complained about how often things, such as the
church list Tom posted, get linked back to CC.  When you pressed in a
later note I elaborated that unless we had new info or something
changed, it seems like most of the key players already know where they
stand.  Thus, my belief that further discussion doesn’t seem to be of
benefit.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)

“I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that matter, on
V2020. I just wish the topic didn’t have to come up with such
frequency.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)

“Do they [Christ Church and NSA] constantly post on Vision 2020 about
the same thing over and over and over and over and over... ad
infinitum?  No, in fact they were pretty much run-off v2020 by folks
that found them offensive (which would seem to violate points 1 AND 2
of our Mission Statement).” (Dec 1 00:17:15)

“If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ Church, and
no real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might.” (Dec 1
00:17:15)

“None of those topics, or any other, get near the coverage on V2020
that Christ Church does.  Too make an analogy: V2020 is like a
household water spigot for most topics.  It is a fire hose for Christ
Church topics.  I’d simply like to see the fire hose turned down.”
(Dec 1 18:11:24)