[Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Sun Apr 25 19:32:18 PDT 2010
I agree. It's an employment issue. If there weren't employers that
look the other way so they can harness (read "exploit") a desperate and
cheap labor force, immigration wouldn't be a problem. What does it
matter if the person sitting next to you on the bus has a green card or
not? It only matters if he or she is taking the job you're applying for.
So fine these employers so much that their accountants walk funny for a
week afterwards. Change the equation so it makes more sense to hire a
minimum wage employee instead of trying to pull a fast one on the
system. I guarantee the majority of these immigrants aren't forging
paperwork and using SSNs from kids that died in childbirth. They simply
get contacted by someone who is already employed there illegally and
hook up with them. They are paid cash under the table, and it's in
their best interests to keep their traps shut.
So if you want to enforce immigration laws, crack down on employers.
Pay them surprise visits. Audit them. Hit them hard when they're
caught. Then escort the immigrants involved to the proper authorities,
and see if you can find some way to help them. Expect the price of
apples to soar to all new heights.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to throw employers in jail, though.
Paul
Mike Deleve wrote:
> The WHOLE point I was trying to make is this. The onus is already on
> the employer, in that all prospective employees must by federal law,
> fill out an I-9 form when they are accepted for employment. This
> requires 1 form of government issued I.D. and your social security
> card. Everybody has to do this, not just immigrants.
> The employers are the problem.Not only do many look the other way
> when it becomes obvious a person is not eligable for work in the U.S.,
> but many go even farther by then putting these folks into what amounts
> to slavery. Holding them hostage with threats of I.C.E. agents for
> less than meager wages and then eventually turning them in to give the
> appearance of compliance. So, once again, fine the living crap out of
> the employers that aren't following the rules AND throw their asses in
> prison!
> Yes, I agree that conditions are that of a developing nation in many
> of our south of the border neighbors (poorer than snot). The fact is,
> we are racing headlong to the same conditions in the U.S. (poorer than
> snot), the illegals drive wages down and poverty up with all of the
> related maladies. We need to take care of us first.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Wayne Price <mailto:bear at moscow.com>
> *To:* Saundra Lund <mailto:v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm> ; Moscow Vision
> 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> ; keely emerinemix
> <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:17 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law
>
> Let me start today, by admitting up front, my heart goes out to
> the folks that abandon everything in the home nations and set out
> to get to the US by any means they find available.
> They are mostly poorer than snot in their own countries, countries
> which I should point out that are not the most enlightened in the
> world and certainly not the most prosperous, or they
> wouldn't be leaving there in the first place.
>
> Having said that, I will ask a question that I am seriously
> bothered by and hope to get an answer to. How do the federal and
> state immigration laws get enforced without being racist?
> By far, the largest number of illegal immigrants ARE in fact
> hispanics, coming from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala,
> Philippines, and Honduras.
> Should the laws just be ignored and not enforced? Should we just
> open up the borders to anyone that wants to come into the United
> States? And what does that tell those folks from those countries
> the have jumped through the legal immigration hoops to get here
> legally?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>
>> In part, Keely wrote:
>> “I'm really disappointed in the tone of much of the discussion
>> here. While it is true that I have much more liberal views on
>> immigration, and particularly illegal immigration, than most of
>> you, the point of my initial post is that the Arizona bill signed
>> into law by Gov. Brewer is a civil-rights, human dignity horror .
>> . . Finally, I'd ask each one of you who think we need to get
>> tough on "illegals" how hungry your kids would have to get, or
>> how threatened your wife would have to be, before you'd do
>> something like cross a border without papers to feed or protect
>> them. Then I'd ask you to consider that you probably won't ever
>> have to face that situation, and perhaps extend some
>> understanding to those who have.”
>> Of course, there are a lot of other valid points in Keely’s posts
>> on this topic, but I parts I’ve excerpted are particularly
>> powerful to me.
>> Keely, I’ve been trying to come up with a response to AZ’s lunacy
>> and blatant disrespect for our Constitution, but I’ve been
>> absolutely, totally, and completely gobsmacked by it.
>> About the only comments I can make are that there’s a foul wind
>> blowing in this country, and it’s been blowing for quite awhile
>> now. It chills me to the bone and it terrifies me to my core.
>> We’ve seen/heard/read – even here – justifications and excuses
>> for the racism that’s dramatically increased and become more
>> “socially acceptable” since 9/11.
>> While I understand that illegal immigration is a valid issue, I
>> don’t think legally institutionalizing racism is the way any just
>> or intelligent government would deal with it. Of course,
>> anti-intellectualism is running rampant among those in this
>> country who have reason to fear the effects of all the red meat
>> they’ve been throwing out for years now.
>> We see this in the gutting of education, which is an attempt to
>> dumb us down to their moronic levels . . . to keep us fat,
>> stupid, and quiet.
>> We also see this in the teabaggers at Friendship Square and
>> elsewhere who hold up signs proclaiming that “Millions of
>> Americans doesn’t equal a fringe movement” or some other stupid
>> platitude when the reality is they’ve been quite content for the
>> millions of Americans without health care to escape
>> consideration, or millions of American women to be discriminated
>> against, or for millions of LGBT Americans to be denied equal
>> protection, or for millions of real American children to be
>> beaten or started or raped or neglected . . . or for millions of
>> Americans of color to become the targets of legal racism.
>> My only hope is that perhaps *this* will be the bridge too far .
>> . . that *this* will be what wakes up real Americans who
>> genuinely love this country and what it was truly founded on who
>> have been silent in complacency and refused to see the
>> unconstitutional direction the wingnuts are hell-bent &
>> determined to force upon us.
>> Saundra Lund
>> Moscow, ID
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
>> people to do nothing.
>> ~ Edmund Burke
>> ****** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010
>> through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward,
>> excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the
>> express written permission of the author.******
>> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>> <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>
>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *keely
>> emerinemix
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 24, 2010 6:52 PM
>> *To:* Chris Price; godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law
>>
>> I'm really disappointed in the tone of much of the discussion
>> here. While it is true that I have much more liberal views on
>> immigration, and particularly illegal immigration, than most of
>> you, the point of my initial post is that the Arizona bill signed
>> into law by Gov. Brewer is a civil-rights, human dignity horror.
>>
>> I think that's the thing we all ought to agree on. Regardless of
>> what people would propose to solve the issues presented by
>> illegal immigration, I'd like to believe that every one of us
>> would recognize bad law when we see it, and would condemn it as
>> such immediately. After all, if there were a bill that required
>> that all gay people be rounded up and deported -- that is, all
>> people presumed to be gay by whatever criteria the cops are told
>> to consider "probable cause" -- I think it would be wrong to
>> respond by discussing, say, domestic partnerships or other issues
>> involving the GLBT community. We would, I hope, vehemently
>> condemn a despicable law, regardless of our views on other issues
>> involving the targets of it. Let's discuss the issue of
>> undocumented border crossers, but let's remember that the topic
>> immediately at hand is a markedly un-American (and un-Christian)
>> bill that ought to provoke our fiercest response. This isn't one
>> of many reasonable solutions to immigration problems. Let's not
>> discuss it as though it were.
>>
>> Before we discuss the "problem" of illegal immigration, shouldn't
>> we take a huge step back and look clearly at what this law does?
>> Does it concern any of you that under the guise of addressing a
>> legitimate issue, the State has determined that physical,
>> linguistic, cultural and other ethnically-based criteria can be
>> used to make people produce certain documents, regardless of
>> whether or not the subject has done anything to attract the
>> attention of law enforcement? Can you reasonably suggest that
>> there is somehow a non-racial/ethnic aspect to this law? Is this
>> really what you want law enforcement to occupy itself with?
>>
>> And does it bother you at all that if you're an Anglo person in
>> the U.S., you're not going to be asked to produce your I.D. and
>> birth certificate or other residency/naturalization/citizenship
>> papers just because a cop tells you to, using immigration as the
>> reason for his/her demand? Are you at all concerned that my
>> sister-in-law's family, or my dear friend Hilda, could be forced
>> to produce documentation that shows their legal residency, just
>> because their skin color, last names, or accents appear "Mexican"
>> -- even though they're American citizens? This is a hateful and
>> unconstitutional law that every single American -- and
>> particularly our libertarian freedom advocates -- ought to greet
>> with horror, and if it continues unchallenged, we won't be able
>> to blame "illegals" for sullying the values and laws of the
>> land. We'll have Arizona's and other state legislatures to thank
>> for that instead.
>>
>> And to promote reasonable measures to address the issue, I'd
>> suggest the following -- but only after making it clear that
>> unreasonable, unjust, and un-Constitutional approaches don't
>> merit discussion as if they were somehow something good people
>> can disagree on.
>>
>> 1. Grant immediate amnesty to any immigrant employed here for
>> more than three consecutive years, and include their working or
>> non-working spouses and their children, foreign-born or
>> American-born. This ought to be a priority for the "family
>> values" set.
>>
>> 2. Tax them as we do all other workers, after they pay a fine --
>> say, $1,000 per family for every year in the country without
>> papers. The fiscal conservatives ought to love this.
>>
>> 3. Make it more easy for immigrants to enter the country
>> legally. It's currently damned near impossible, even for highly
>> skilled workers, and agricultural industries need a steady number
>> of low-skilled people to harvest crops, regardless of how they
>> get here. (Notice that even the most conservative farmers, dairy
>> owners, and other ag-industry owners aren't on the anti-immigrant
>> bandwagon?) This should please those conservatives and all
>> others like them who eat, as well as those who think that people
>> risk their lives to cross over because, dang, it's kind of a
>> hassle to go through legal channels.
>>
>> 4. Once those immigrants are granted amnesty -- permanent
>> resident-alien status, with a tax break, perhaps, upon earning
>> citizenship -- the borders should be patrolled humanely,
>> constitutionally, and legally, and stiff penalties for crossing
>> illegally should then be enacted. This should satisfy the
>> law-and-order crowd, although I'd remind them and anyone else who
>> clamors for the prosecution of employers who hire undocumented
>> workers that the Federal I-9 employment form MUST, by law, be
>> accepted by an employer IF it looks genuine. I've been through
>> U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service training on I-9s
>> twice, and I know I could be fooled. Employers don't have the
>> luxury, thank God, of examining an I-9 that looks fine and then
>> declining to hire the presenter anyway because statistics say
>> it's PROBABLY not genuine anyway. That's illegal, too. If an
>> I-9 looks real, it has to be accepted. Period.
>>
>> Finally, I'd ask each one of you who think we need to get tough
>> on "illegals" how hungry your kids would have to get, or how
>> threatened your wife would have to be, before you'd do something
>> like cross a border without papers to feed or protect them. Then
>> I'd ask you to consider that you probably won't ever have to face
>> that situation, and perhaps extend some understanding to those
>> who have.
>>
>> Keely
>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: bear at moscow.com <mailto:bear at moscow.com>
>> To: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:10:15 -0700
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law
>>
>> Paul,
>> I agree that this is an issue that there are no simple answers
>> to. When you said "what we are now doing which is holding
>> illegal immigration to be a status that should be demonized",
>> shouldn't it be?
>> I am NOT talking about those in this country legally, but those
>> in the country illegally. Those folks that have jumped through
>> the hoops have paid their dues so to speak and should
>> be welcomed and should be held up as great examples. Those
>> however that have entered illegally, have in fact committed a
>> federal crime and should be prosecuted, deported and barred
>> from re-entry.
>> Now, one of the areas that does impact us locally is with the
>> certification that has to be submitted by employers to the
>> Department of Labor to bring in foreign workers.
>> The employer has to certify:
>>
>> · There are insufficient available, qualified, and
>> willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the
>> prevailing wage
>>
>> · Hiring a foreign worker will not adversely affect the
>> wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers
>>
>> Just think about this when it involves the University and
>> bringing in employees from outside the US. The University is
>> saying, "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing
>> U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing
>> wage". Well, what is that based on? Notice there is NO mention
>> of "best qualified", just "qualified". For instance, a position
>> becomes available at the University. Several people including US
>> citizens, put in for the position and a foreign national is given
>> there job. Now, when the University certifies to the federal
>> government that "There are insufficient available, qualified, and
>> willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the
>> prevailing wage" is it true? And is it even looked into or is
>> the certification taken on face value and no subsequent
>> investigation as to the truth or falsehood of the statement by
>> the employer is made? And there is a pro-forma process where the
>> notification is "posted" for two weeks outside an obscure office
>> door where the other applicants are unlikely to ever see it and
>> be able to contest the hiring decision. And a better question
>> would be who makes the determination at the employer level that
>> "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S.
>> workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing
>> wage?" Some clerk? The University President? Who is held
>> responsible IF a determination is made that the statement is
>> false? What is the consequence? Currently, it doesn't appear to
>> be any at all, so why would the "system" ever change?
>> This is just an example of large gaps in the current immigration
>> system that should be plugged. It is also one of the reasons why
>> laws like the one Arizona are passed and why there is such a
>> strong backlash against illegal immigrants. When qualified US
>> citizens are passed over for US taxpayer funded jobs to bring in
>> a foreign national, there is bound to be a backlash. And the
>> depressed economic situation adds to that backlash and frustration.
>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
>>
>>
>> Perhaps we should convict the employers even if they didn't
>> know that they hired an illegal alien. It might make them
>> care about due diligence when hiring someone a little bit
>> more. I imagine that most of these people aren't being paid
>> at executive levels, they are probably being paid at much
>> less than minimum wage. That alone should be a sign that
>> they don't have a legal status. I don't think it's a case of
>> employers being duped by devious immigrants, they are in this
>> with their eyes wide open.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> lfalen wrote:
>> This sounds good on the face of it. The problem is in how do
>> you known if they are an illegal alien? Will people have to
>> produce some sort of proof that they are a legal resident?
>> These documents can and are forged. I have no problem with
>> convecting employers if it can be proven that they knowingly
>> hired illegals. This may be hard to prove.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> -----Original message-----
>>
>> From: "Mike Deleve" coolerfixer at roadrunner.com
>> <mailto:coolerfixer at roadrunner.com>
>>
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:50:03 -0700
>>
>> To: "Wayne Price" bear at moscow.com
>> <mailto:bear at moscow.com>, "keely
>> emerinemix" kjajmix1 at msn.com <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law
>>
>> It's incredibly easy. $100,000 mandatory fine with 1
>> year MANDATORY time in FEDERAL PRISON for anyone
>> employing an illegal alien. Employers are taking
>> advantage of the border jumpers, but the employment
>> is why they come.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Price
>> To: keely emerinemix Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> Sent: Friday, April
>> 23, 2010 5:30 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in
>> Arizona Law
>>
>> Keely,
>>
>> While I agree that this has opened a whole can of
>> worms as far as profiling, DWM, etc, etc, What can
>> or should be done about ILLEGAL immigrants?
>>
>> There is a process, for better or worse that allows
>> folks that are not US citizens access to the US and
>> to jobs in the US. From what I understand, the AZ law
>> isn't going after
>>
>> those folks at all. It is focused on the illegal
>> immigrants.
>>
>> Solutions?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:26 PM, keely emerinemix wrote:
>>
>> Arizona Governor Signs a Controversial Immigration
>> Bill
>>
>> > > Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed a bill
>> that would require
>>
>> > the police to ask people about their immigration
>> status if
>>
>> > officers have any reason to suspect that they
>> are in the
>>
>> > country illegally. (NY Times, April 23, 2010)
>>
>> This is shameful.
>>
>> "Any reason to suspect" that someone is in the
>> country illegally means simply that "anyone who looks
>> Mexican" could have their race, language, ethnicity,
>> customs become probable cause for questioning. The
>> idea of "driving while Mexican" used to be a wry,
>> sick joke. Now, it's a cornerstone for "law and
>> order," and it reeks.
>>
>> I hope our local "Libertarians" and freedom lovers
>> join me in condemning this bill with all vehemence.
>> Because if not, the silence from their keyboards,
>> fieldhouses, and offices would be deafening, given
>> the incessant braying recently about the State's
>> denial of rights, pronounced threats to liberty, and
>> an alarming erosion of Constitutional and family values.
>>
>> Keely
>>
>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>> <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
>>
>> Keely
>>
>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>> <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
>>
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