[Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law

Sun Apr 25 11:32:14 PDT 2010

In part, Keely wrote:

"I'm really disappointed in the tone of much of the discussion here.  While
it is true that I have much more liberal views on immigration, and
particularly illegal immigration, than most of you, the point of my initial
post is that the Arizona bill signed into law by Gov. Brewer is a
civil-rights, human dignity horror . . . Finally, I'd ask each one of you
who think we need to get tough on "illegals" how hungry your kids would have
to get, or how threatened your wife would have to be, before you'd do
something like cross a border without papers to feed or protect them.  Then
I'd ask you to consider that you probably won't ever have to face that
situation, and perhaps extend some understanding to those who have."

Of course, there are a lot of other valid points in Keely's posts on this
topic, but I parts I've excerpted are particularly powerful to me.

Keely, I've been trying to come up with a response to AZ's lunacy and
blatant disrespect for our Constitution, but I've been absolutely, totally,
and completely gobsmacked by it.

About the only comments I can make are that there's a foul wind blowing in
this country, and it's been blowing for quite awhile now.  It chills me to
the bone and it terrifies me to my core.  We've seen/heard/read - even here
- justifications and excuses for the racism that's dramatically increased
and become more "socially acceptable" since 9/11.

While I understand that illegal immigration is a valid issue, I don't think
legally institutionalizing racism is the way any just or intelligent
government would deal with it.  Of course, anti-intellectualism is running
rampant among those in this country who have reason to fear the effects of
all the red meat they've been throwing out for years now.

We see this in the gutting of education, which is an attempt  to dumb us
down to their moronic levels . . . to keep us fat, stupid, and quiet.

We also see this in the teabaggers at Friendship Square and elsewhere who
hold up signs proclaiming that "Millions of Americans doesn't equal a fringe
movement" or some other stupid platitude when the reality is they've been
quite content for the millions of Americans without health care to escape
consideration, or millions of American women to be discriminated against, or
for millions of LGBT Americans to be denied equal protection, or for
millions of real American children to be beaten or started or raped or
neglected . . . or for millions of Americans of color to become the targets
of legal racism.

My only hope is that perhaps this will be the bridge too far . . . that this
will be what wakes up real Americans who genuinely love this country and
what it was truly founded on who have been silent in complacency and refused
to see the unconstitutional direction the wingnuts are hell-bent &
determined to force upon us.

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of keely emerinemix
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 6:52 PM
To: Chris Price; godshatter at yahoo.com
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law

I'm really disappointed in the tone of much of the discussion here.  While
it is true that I have much more liberal views on immigration, and
particularly illegal immigration, than most of you, the point of my initial
post is that the Arizona bill signed into law by Gov. Brewer is a
civil-rights, human dignity horror.  

I think that's the thing we all ought to agree on.  Regardless of what
people would propose to solve the issues presented by illegal immigration,
I'd like to believe that every one of us would recognize bad law when we see
it, and would condemn it as such immediately.  After all, if there were a
bill that required that all gay people be rounded up and deported -- that
is, all people presumed to be gay by whatever criteria the cops are told to
consider "probable cause" -- I think it would be wrong to respond by
discussing, say, domestic partnerships or other issues involving the GLBT
community.  We would, I hope, vehemently condemn a despicable law,
regardless of our views on other issues involving the targets of it.  Let's
discuss the issue of undocumented border crossers, but let's remember that
the topic immediately at hand is a markedly un-American (and un-Christian)
bill that ought to provoke our fiercest response.  This isn't one of many
reasonable solutions to immigration problems.  Let's not discuss it as
though it were.

Before we discuss the "problem" of illegal immigration, shouldn't we take a
huge step back and look clearly at what this law does?  Does it concern any
of you that under the guise of addressing a legitimate issue, the State has
determined that physical, linguistic, cultural and other ethnically-based
criteria can be used to make people produce certain documents, regardless of
whether or not the subject has done anything to attract the attention of law
enforcement?  Can you reasonably suggest that there is somehow a
non-racial/ethnic aspect to this law?  Is this really what you want law
enforcement to occupy itself with?  

And does it bother you at all that if you're an Anglo person in the U.S.,
you're not going to be asked to produce your I.D. and birth certificate or
other residency/naturalization/citizenship papers just because a cop tells
you to, using immigration as the reason for his/her demand?  Are you at all
concerned that my sister-in-law's family, or my dear friend Hilda, could be
forced to produce documentation that shows their legal residency, just
because their skin color, last names, or accents appear "Mexican" -- even
though they're American citizens?  This is a hateful and unconstitutional
law that every single American -- and particularly our libertarian freedom
advocates -- ought to greet with horror, and if it continues unchallenged,
we won't be able to blame "illegals" for sullying the values and laws of the
land.  We'll have Arizona's and other state legislatures to thank for that
instead.

And to promote reasonable measures to address the issue, I'd suggest the
following -- but only after making it clear that unreasonable, unjust, and
un-Constitutional approaches don't merit discussion as if they were somehow
something good people can disagree on.  

1.  Grant immediate amnesty to any immigrant employed here for more than
three consecutive years, and include their working or non-working spouses
and their children, foreign-born or American-born.  This ought to be a
priority for the "family values" set.

2.  Tax them as we do all other workers, after they pay a fine -- say,
$1,000 per family for every year in the country without papers.  The fiscal
conservatives ought to love this.

3.  Make it more easy for immigrants to enter the country legally.  It's
currently damned near impossible, even for highly skilled workers, and
agricultural industries need a steady number of low-skilled people to
harvest crops, regardless of how they get here.  (Notice that even the most
conservative farmers, dairy owners, and other ag-industry owners aren't on
the anti-immigrant bandwagon?)  This should please those conservatives and
all others like them who eat, as well as those who think that people risk
their lives to cross over because, dang, it's kind of a hassle to go through
legal channels.

4.  Once those immigrants are granted amnesty -- permanent resident-alien
status, with a tax break, perhaps, upon earning citizenship -- the borders
should be patrolled humanely, constitutionally, and legally, and stiff
penalties for crossing illegally should then be enacted.  This should
satisfy the law-and-order crowd, although I'd remind them and anyone else
who clamors for the prosecution of employers who hire undocumented workers
that the Federal I-9 employment form MUST, by law, be accepted by an
employer IF it looks genuine.  I've been through U.S. Immigration and
Naturalization Service training on I-9s twice, and I know I could be fooled.
Employers don't have the luxury, thank God, of examining an I-9 that looks
fine and then declining to hire the presenter anyway because statistics say
it's PROBABLY not genuine anyway.   That's illegal, too.  If an I-9 looks
real, it has to be accepted.  Period.  

Finally, I'd ask each one of you who think we need to get tough on
"illegals" how hungry your kids would have to get, or how threatened your
wife would have to be, before you'd do something like cross a border without
papers to feed or protect them.  Then I'd ask you to consider that you
probably won't ever have to face that situation, and perhaps extend some
understanding to those who have.

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

  _____  

From: bear at moscow.com
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:10:15 -0700
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law

Paul,

I agree that this is an issue that there are no simple answers to. When you
said "what we are now doing which is  holding illegal immigration to be a
status that should be demonized", shouldn't it be?

I am NOT talking about those in this country legally, but those in the
country illegally.  Those folks that have jumped through the hoops have paid
their dues so to speak and should

be welcomed and should be held up as great examples. Those however that have
entered illegally, have in fact committed a federal crime and should be
prosecuted, deported and barred

from re-entry.

Now, one of the areas that does impact us locally is with the certification
that has to be submitted by employers to the Department of  Labor to bring
in foreign workers. 

The employer has to certify:

.         There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S.
workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage

.         Hiring a foreign worker will not adversely affect the wages and
working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers

Just think about this when it involves the University and bringing in
employees from outside the US. The University is saying, "There are
insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the
position being offered at the prevailing wage". Well, what is that based on?
Notice there is NO mention of "best qualified", just "qualified".  For
instance, a position becomes available at the University. Several people
including US citizens, put in for the position and a foreign national is
given there job. Now, when the University certifies to the federal
government that "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing
U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage" is
it true?  And is it even looked into or is the certification taken on face
value and no subsequent investigation as to the truth or falsehood of the
statement by the employer is made? And there is a pro-forma process where
the notification  is "posted" for two weeks outside an obscure office door
where the other applicants  are unlikely to ever see it and be able to
contest the hiring decision. And a better question would be who makes the
determination at the employer level that  "There are insufficient available,
qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at
the prevailing wage?"  Some clerk? The University President? Who is held
responsible IF a determination is made that the statement is false? What is
the consequence?  Currently, it doesn't appear to be any at all, so why
would the "system" ever change? 

This is just an example of large gaps in the current immigration system that
should be plugged. It is also one of the reasons why laws like the one
Arizona are passed and why there is such a strong backlash against illegal
immigrants. When qualified US citizens are passed over for US taxpayer
funded jobs to bring in a foreign national, there is bound to be a backlash.
And the depressed economic situation adds to that backlash and frustration.

On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:

Perhaps we should convict the employers even if they didn't know that they
hired an illegal alien.  It might make them care about due diligence when
hiring someone a little bit more.  I imagine that most of these people
aren't being paid at executive levels, they are probably being paid at much
less than minimum wage.  That alone should be a sign that they don't have a
legal status.  I don't think it's a case of employers being duped by devious
immigrants, they are in this with their eyes wide open.

Paul

lfalen wrote:

This sounds good on the face of it. The problem is in how do you known if
they are an illegal alien? Will people have to produce some sort of proof
that they are a legal resident? These documents can  and are  forged. I have
no problem with convecting employers if it can be proven that they knowingly
hired illegals. This may be hard to prove.

Roger

-----Original message-----

From: "Mike Deleve" coolerfixer at roadrunner.com

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:50:03 -0700

To: "Wayne Price" bear at moscow.com,  "keely emerinemix" kjajmix1 at msn.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law

It's incredibly easy. $100,000 mandatory fine with 1 year MANDATORY time in
FEDERAL PRISON for anyone employing an illegal alien. Employers are taking
advantage of the border jumpers, but the employment is why they come.

 ----- Original Message -----   From: Wayne Price   To: keely emerinemix
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com   Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 5:30 PM

 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law

 Keely,

 While I agree that this has opened a whole can of worms as far as
profiling, DWM, etc, etc,  What can or should be done about ILLEGAL
immigrants?

 There is a process, for better or worse that allows folks that are not US
citizens access to the US and to jobs in the US. From what I understand, the
AZ law isn't going after

 those folks at all. It is focused on the illegal immigrants.

 Solutions?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------

 On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:26 PM, keely emerinemix wrote:

   Arizona Governor Signs a Controversial Immigration Bill

   >     > Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed a bill that would require

   > the police to ask people about their immigration status if

   > officers have any reason to suspect that they are in the

   > country illegally.  (NY Times, April 23, 2010)

   This is shameful.

   "Any reason to suspect" that someone is in the country illegally means
simply that "anyone who looks Mexican" could have their race, language,
ethnicity, customs become probable cause for questioning.  The idea of
"driving while Mexican" used to be a wry, sick joke.  Now, it's a
cornerstone for "law and order," and it reeks.

   I hope our local "Libertarians" and freedom lovers join me in condemning
this bill with all vehemence.  Because if not, the silence from their
keyboards, fieldhouses, and offices would be deafening, given the incessant
braying recently about the State's denial of rights, pronounced threats to
liberty, and an alarming erosion of Constitutional and family values.

   Keely

   www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

   Keely

   www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

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