[Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
Sun Nov 15 10:25:30 PST 2009
Paul,
I don't believe anyone is excepting of the actions, they are just attempting to explain the rationing behind it.
It is the "business" of every Christian to help guide every soul to Christ, not away from Him. Many Christians care what happens to every soul in much the same way most people care about the welfare of children, the elderly, and the disabled. If there were a billboard advocating physically harm to a child, people would be opposed, yes?
A Christian can easily view this sign as advocating harm to the innocent because it is directing people away from Christ, the greatest and most harm anyone could possibly do to another.
I don't support the destruction of the billboard as means of accomplishing this goal because it is counter productive and doesn't offer a long term solution to the problem. There are also other ways of achieving the right ends without violating God's lesser laws.
Donovan Arnold
--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
To: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>
Cc: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:30 PM
I still don't completely understand it. What business is it of the person who defaced the billboard whether or not my immortal soul goes to Heaven or Hell? That's the part I can't get my head around. Were they really trying to help the undecided out by risking a criminal record in an effort to afford them the best long-term after-death care? Or were they so threatened by the loss of power that could entail for their religion if more of their fellow Christians became aware that there were other choices that they had to do something? Since we don't know who did it, we'll probably never know what motivated them.
I do agree that the "elephant in the room" that people are reluctant to talk about is the fact that a philosophical outlook like this could inspire people to break the law and that lots of others appear to accept this as being OK.
Paul
Ted Moffett wrote:
> I should clarify that I am not offended by the "Millions are Good without God" billboard, now replaced. I think that what it states is true. Millions who do not believe in "God," are kind, honest people, who treat their fellow human beings and other lifeforms well. But I can understand why someone would strongly feel this message to be encouraging harm, given certain religious assumptions, and would thus feel compelled to "alter" the billboard.
>
> On 11/14/09, *Donovan Arnold* <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com <mailto:donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> Awesome and insightful post Mr. Moffett! I can only hope others
> will read and understand your expertly stated explanation of his
> person or persons behaviors toward that sign.
> I personally don't think that vandalism is the best way to remove
> the sign. I would do a price beat with the sign company for the
> space, or I would petition the city to remove all of those ugly
> roadside signs that destroy the environment and the beauty of the
> Palouse.
> Your Friend,
> Donovan Arnold
> --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, Ted Moffett /<starbliss at gmail.com
> <mailto:starbliss at gmail.com>>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com
> <mailto:starbliss at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
> To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 9:46 PM
>
>
> Absolute certainty in a belief that if someone does not
> believe in God, their "eternal soul" is damned forever,
> renders the "Millions are Good without God" message one
> that might do great harm, for someone who takes this belief
> with utmost seriousness and acts accordingly. From this point
> of view, it is not "benignly worded," but suggests that not
> believing in God is an acceptable option, when in fact the
> fate of a persons eternal soul is in jeopardy, if they take
> the billboard seriously.
> Those who argue that religion is not a primary source of
> problems in our world seem to downplay that if someone
> takes certain rather incredible yet common religious beliefs
> seriously, and acts upon them, vandalism, war, bigotry, etc.,
> become reasonable. The aggressive tactics of missionaries
> (sometimes not calling themselves "missionaries" explicitly)
> have been and still are defended given the logic that if
> unbelievers are not converted, their eternal souls are lost;
> extreme measures are reasonable given this logic. What is the
> importance of one human biological lifetime compared to the
> future life of an eternal soul?
> If I really believed with certainty that those who do not
> believe in God would have their eternal soul damned, I might
> defend vandalizing a billboard with a message suggesting that
> not believing in God is acceptable, as a form of "civil
> disobedience," a moral duty, even if illegal and risking
> penalties from the justice system of the State.
> I'm not sure what Thoreau would think about a billboard
> vandalized due to religious principles:
> From Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience," available online in total
> at the website below:
> "Unjust laws exist; shall we be content to obey them, or shall
> we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have
> succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? Men generally,
> under such a government as this, think that they ought to wait
> until they have persuaded the majority to alter them. They
> think that, if they should resist, the remedy would be worse
> than the evil. But it is the fault of the government itself
> that the remedy /is /worse than the evil. /It/ makes it worse.
> Why is it not more apt to anticipate and provide for reform?
> Why does it not cherish its wise minority? Why does it cry and
> resist before it is hurt? Why does it not encourage its
> citizens to be on the alert to point out its faults, and /do/
> better than it would have them?"
> *Civil Disobedience - Part 1 of 3*
> http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil1.html
> ------------------------------------------
> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Paul Rumelhart
> <godshatter at yahoo.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> It's not the fact that it's a little vandalism that is the
> important
> point, at least to me. It's the intolerance of such a
> benignly worded
> sign that I find astounding.
>
> Paul
>
> the lockshop wrote:
> > "...this is attention Moscow can do without.."
> >
> > While I agree that it's not terribly flattering for
> Moscow's reputation as
> > the most left leaning township in Idaho, I hardly see it
> as anti-crime
> > priority #1. After all, what's the worst that might come
> of the negative
> > publicity? The American Atheist Assn. won't have it's
> winter solstice
> > bachanal in our bustling metropolis? Or, perhaps the ACLU
> spring fertility
> > rite and craft fair will see attendance suffer? I very
> much doubt it.
> >
> > If this is the most egregious crime to be reported from
> our sleepy little
> > burg to make the internet rounds, I'll be happy to admit
> that, while I don't
> > care for vandalism of any kind, compared to other forms
> of noteriety we
> > could be villified for, I'll somehow find a way to come
> to terms with the
> > shame.
> >
> > g
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kenneth Marcy" <kmmos1 at verizon.net
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@verizon.net>>
> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Thursday 12 November 2009 12:09:48 Tom Hansen wrote:
> >>
> >>> For a historical aspect of dastardly doings done dirty
> . . .
> >>> http://www.tomandrodna.com/Photos/GoodGod..htm
> >>>
> >> Following the URL www.americanhumanist.org
> <http://www.americanhumanist.org/> to their web site, then
> >> entering Moscow in the site's Search box, reveals that
> their site is
> >> reporting the vandalism Internet-wide. Since this is
> attention Moscow
> >> can do without, it behooves local law enforcement
> personnel to do
> >> everything reasonably possible to bring closure to this
> matter.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
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> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
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> >>
> >
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