[Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .

Sun Nov 15 09:53:41 PST 2009

Ted,

I think it was clear your personal beliefs were separated from your logical analysis of the personal behavior of others. 

I certainly agree that people can be kind, friendly and well intentioned human beings without believing in a God. But I personally disagree that is it possible to be "Good" without God, since God is the definition of all things good. So "Good Without God" is an illogical statement. 

I do believe that destroying a billboard is not good, and is in fact an evil. But I believe that destruction of a soul, the intended aim of the billboard, is a greater sin. My preference is that the billboard be removed without doing evil. 

Your Friend,

Donovan Arnold

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 11:03 AM

I should clarify that I am not offended by the "Millions are Good without God" billboard, now replaced.  I think that what it states is true.  Millions who do not believe in "God," are kind, honest people, who treat their fellow human beings and other lifeforms well.  But I can understand why someone would strongly feel this message to be encouraging harm, given certain religious assumptions, and would thus feel compelled to "alter" the billboard.

On 11/14/09, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Awesome and insightful post Mr. Moffett! I can only hope others will read and understand your expertly stated explanation of his person or persons behaviors toward that sign.

I personally don't think that vandalism is the best way to remove the sign. I would do a price beat with the sign company for the space, or I would petition the city to remove all of those ugly roadside signs that destroy the environment and the beauty of the Palouse.

Your Friend,

Donovan Arnold
--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 9:46 PM 

Absolute certainty in a belief that if someone does not believe in God, their "eternal soul" is damned forever, renders the "Millions are Good without God" message one that might do great harm, for someone who takes this belief with utmost seriousness and acts accordingly.  From this point of view, it is not "benignly worded," but suggests that not believing in God is an acceptable option, when in fact the fate of a persons eternal soul is in jeopardy, if they take the billboard seriously.

Those who argue that religion is not a primary source of problems in our world seem to downplay that if someone takes certain rather incredible yet common religious beliefs seriously, and acts upon them, vandalism, war, bigotry, etc., become reasonable.  The aggressive tactics of missionaries (sometimes not calling themselves "missionaries" explicitly) have been and still are defended given the logic that if unbelievers are not converted, their eternal souls are lost; extreme measures are reasonable given this logic.  What is the importance of one human biological lifetime compared to the future life of an eternal soul?

If I really believed with certainty that those who do not believe in God would have their eternal soul damned, I might defend vandalizing a billboard with a message suggesting that not believing in God is acceptable, as a form of "civil disobedience," a moral duty, even if illegal and risking penalties from the justice system of the State.

I'm not sure what Thoreau would think about a billboard vandalized due to religious principles:

>From Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience," available online in total at the website below:

"Unjust laws exist; shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? Men generally, under such a government as this, think that they ought to wait until they have persuaded the majority to alter them. They think that, if they should resist, the remedy would be worse than the evil. But it is the fault of the government itself that the remedy is worse than the evil. It makes it worse. Why is it not more apt to anticipate and provide for reform? Why does it not cherish its wise minority? Why does it cry and resist before it is hurt? Why does it not encourage its citizens to be on the alert to point out its faults, and do better than it would have them?" 

Civil Disobedience - Part 1 of 3 

http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil1.html

------------------------------------------
Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

It's not the fact that it's a little vandalism that is the important
point, at least to me.  It's the intolerance of such a benignly worded
sign that I find astounding.

Paul

the lockshop wrote:
> "...this is attention Moscow can do without."
>
> While I agree that it's not terribly flattering for Moscow's reputation as
> the most left leaning township in Idaho, I hardly see it as anti-crime
> priority #1. After all, what's the worst that might come of the negative
> publicity? The American Atheist Assn. won't have it's winter solstice
> bachanal in our bustling metropolis? Or, perhaps the ACLU spring fertility
> rite and craft fair will see attendance suffer? I very much doubt it.
>
> If this is the most egregious crime to be reported from our sleepy little
> burg to make the internet rounds, I'll be happy to admit that, while I don't
> care for vandalism of any kind, compared to other forms of noteriety we
> could be villified for, I'll somehow find a way to come to terms with the
> shame.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenneth Marcy" <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And Yet, The Saga Continues . . .
>
>
>
>> On Thursday 12 November 2009 12:09:48 Tom Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> For a historical aspect of dastardly doings done dirty . . .
>>> http://www.tomandrodna.com/Photos/GoodGod.htm
>>>
>> Following the URL www.americanhumanist.org to their web site, then
>> entering Moscow in the site's Search box, reveals that their site is
>> reporting the vandalism Internet-wide. Since this is attention Moscow
>> can do without, it behooves local law enforcement personnel to do
>> everything reasonably possible to bring closure to this matter.
>>
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.62/2499 - Release Date: 11/12/09
> 06:33:00
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net
         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet, 
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20091115/7c5e79b3/attachment-0001.html 