[Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 9 07:00:38 PST 2009
G,
We agree on most things here.
I would not call the US Solider a Christian Soldier, even if he was Christian. A Christian Soldier in the past is what I was referring to.
I do believe that God only had men to work with. Men are sinful creatures. God used them to wipe out the more sinful and wicked.
When we read stories about men in the name of God slaughtering villages and townships, men, women, and even children, wholesale, I believe it is because those townships and villages were wicked and God wanted them to be removed, not grow and populate the Earth.
But even the Bible says men will falsely use his name.
Your Friend,
Donovan Arnold
--- On Sun, 11/8/09, Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 10:47 PM
I agree that Jesus would wonder about the many people who claim to call themselves Christians yet can't forgive, don't turn another cheek and won't treat their neighbors as they wish to be treated. How many of these Christians would be seen with lepers and prostitutes?
It's easy to claim Jesus is your savior, quite another to emulate Him.
I dig Jesus and what he taught, but understand that to blindly follow any religion tends to lead to irrationality and dangerous behavior, something I think Jesus would abhor.
I have no problem with people following their religion, but when they cross the boundary of my personal space (including the Constitution) then it seems only right to call fanatics what they are.
I've seen photos of soldiers dangling crosses in their US military-owned humvees. There have been US generals who call the war in the mideast a holy war. Sarah Palin calls it a "mission from God." To have so much religious propaganda in the military and top political leaders should disturb any rational American as if we let this become a holy war, we've lost.
Are you saying God is irrational, or God is rational by not using good men in the military? That is any interesting theory...
Garrett Clevenger
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com; Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 11:43:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
Garrett,
I think you are confusing Christians with people that use the name of Christ. If I say my name is Garrett when I do horrible things to people it doesn't make me Garrett, because Garrett would not do horrible things to people.
But on the other side of that token, maybe we don't know all the facts of the time, and that as horrible as the people were that called themselves Christian Soldiers, were in fact the least of the evils at the time, or God simply always choose the winning side to ensure his name was carried forth, even if through the mud.
Stalin was evil. Yet we sided with the devil to beat the bigger Satan, Hitler.
If I were a rational God, I would use wicked men to wipe out and slaughter the most wicked of men. I would not use good men.
How is your daughter doing Garrett? Can you privilege us with an another photo?
Your Friend,
Donovan Arnold
--- On Sun, 11/8/09, Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 5:39 PM
Donovan,
Sure, that could be true.
Then again, when Christians try to force their world view on people who don't believe their fairy tale, that's offensive.
Christian Missionaries destroyed native cultures all over the world. Completely offensive.
Christian soldiers now are fighting a holy war in the mid east, offending to the death.
Christians using their agenda to encourage the Rapture are screwing everybody in the process. (Afterall, why would they care what happens to the planet or the non believers when they'll be saved and we'll be left behind?) Willingly offensive by design.
Christians subvert the First Amendment by using the Bible to justify religious based laws. That's treasonous and completely offensive to our Constitution and the people who lose their rights.
I've seen self-righteous signs on the road by religious people that are offensive. I usually just laugh at their arrogance, not want to deface their property.
It seems the Christians you speak of who are so sensitive of others expressing themselves ought to ask, "What would Jesus do?"
My understanding is that he'd probably turn the other cheek, or use compassionate communication to encourage non-believers, or not even be bothered by such trivialness.
Jesus would probably be most offended by His followers seeming oblivious to the hurt the US has caused to the planet and the billions of other inhabitants His Holy Father created for us to live on, and wonder why you aren't working hard to stop the war machine and truly offensive policies.
If there were a devil, he'd use religion to promote divisive and self righteousness, something religious people seem pretty good at.
But then again, maybe there isn't a devil or a Jesus, just a bunch of bipedal animals who aren't smart enough to see the harm the power they've been given by creation can really cause.
Excuse me for not caring about how Christians may be offended by a benign sign. That seems a little silly to me in context of the hurt some Christians cause, willingly or blindly.
Take care,
Garrett Clevenger
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com; Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:05:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
Garrett,
How is drawing a picture of a God offensive? It is.
Christians don't believe anything is good without God. It cannot be. It is contrary to its definition. It is saying all squares are round. It is an insult to their faith to say that.
Insulting people's faith and personal value system is going to elicit a negative reaction.
Your Friend,
Donovan Arnold
--- On Sun, 11/8/09, Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 7:34 AM
How is "millions are good without God" negative or offensive?
I suppose if it said something like, "millions wish God {or Christians} would go to Hell" then yeah, I could see you point.
The slogan in question is benign.
Garrett Clevenger
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>; vision2020 at moscow.com; deb <debismith at moscow.com>
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 11:18:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
Debi,
Is there nothing on a billboard that could be so offensive to you that you would want to see it vandalized or removed? I find that hard to imagine.
I can think of lots of things that could be on a billboard to make me want to take it down. If God is important to someone, which He is, it is going to be offensive, and people don't want to be forced to look at highly offensive things every day.
I'm not saying I would advocate this method of removing the billboard, because I don't. But when they have a huge audience of people and they say something negative and offensive some of them are going to react in a bad way. It is inevitable.
Donovan Arnold
--- On Sun, 11/8/09, deb <debismith at moscow.com> wrote:
From: deb <debismith at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
To: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 1:45 AM
#yiv830604094 #yiv1265805795 #yiv1439036781 #yiv1820296345 DIV {MARGIN:0px;}
I just don't understand how anyone with faith in their religion would be so threatened by a billboard that he or she would deface said billboard. Of course, I don't understand how someone else's relationship (straight or gay) would threaten my marriage. All I can think is the "faith" expressed is pretty puny if it can't stand the stress of such external goings on...Methinks they do protest too much? Faith that easily shaken is no faith at all.
Just sayin'
Debi R-S
----- Original Message -----
From: Garrett Clevenger
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] vandals strike again (I fixed it for you Donovan)
Mike said what I would have said. I would only change "Christians" to say "religious fanatics."
It's intersting that some justify the vandalism because they were offended and threatened by the billboard. An an analogy would be justifying James killing of Tyler because James felt threatened by him. James edited that threat like the vandals edited the words, only a billboard is less threatening than a jealous man. Obviously a dead man is a way worse outcome than a vandalized billboard.
Both are crimes that should be put in the proper context and should have the proper punishment.
Mike writes:
"This makes at least as much sense. Donovan, I agree that there are a great number of Christians that are not out to do harm, and just want to be left alone and want to leave atheists alone.... Unfortunately, that is not the case for most Christians. Many Christians ridicule atheists. Attack them as people. Make fun of their lack of belief in God as equivocal to that of children believing in the Easter Bunny. But also want to bring real harm by the elimination and change of US Culture to insert God and replace the Constitution with the Bible as the head of all authority. They want to tax, and consequently, shut
down anyone that disagrees with them. Christianity not only brings a cultural breakdown of basic American Values and Traditions, but at its very core promotes the principles of insanity. Many Atheists want the 20+% of the people that don't believe in God to bow down to them, and say "Merry Christmas", "God Bless you", or "One Nation Under God". They don't care that 20+% of Americans are offended that God is forced into their daily lives. Nobody is barring Christians from church, or to be buried in a cemetary, or to celebrate Christmas. But they want all of it to be mandated into any public area to accomodate their personal belief system.. Understand, whenever people preach God, there will ALWAYS be oppostion. It is our freedom and right to be free from God in everything we do. Many Christians piss people off because they don't think of them as people that want to be free from their beliefs but are hostile people instead,
that are out to stop us from celebrating ours. Happy Holidays, Mike Deleve"
Garrett Clevenger
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