[Vision2020] WTF?
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
Sat Nov 7 00:31:52 PST 2009
"If you don't like the punishment for the various degrees of crime, then go to your legislator and have the law changed." Chuck Kovis
I don't think Chuck knows how our legal system works. Unless you are a lobbyist your Legislator will not respond to your requests.
But in this case, I don't blame the lawmakers, just the lawyers. Lawmakers made murder illegal in Idaho, punishable by death. It is the lawyers that subvert its intentions.
Donovan Arnold
--- On Fri, 11/6/09, donald edwards <donaledwards at hotmail.com> wrote:
From: donald edwards <donaledwards at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] WTF?
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:19 PM
I sympathize with the "crime of passion" argument from personal experience with a similar situation involving a cheating fiancee' in our own living room while I was home. I guess I chose to swallow my ego, go out and learn Craps that night at the Flamingo Hilton down the street, then move out the next day. What was I going to do that would change her mind? Kill us all? It took maybe a few weeks of introspection to weigh my own part in what maybe inspired her to that action of longing something different.
"If you don't like the punishment for the various degrees of crime, then go to your legislator and have the law changed." Chuck Kovis
Chuck is right. The laws suck. I think it's because most of our lawmakers don't care about serving the common man but are whores for big business. This is obvious in a system where we allow private owned prisons to lobby congress for mandatory minimum sentences and three-strikes laws that would put away a petty thief for 25yrs. with no parole because he stole a loaf of bread after being out of jail for 5 years and holding a job the entire time. No compassion allowed for him.
Or the man who loses his house and family and serves a min. 10yrs. no-parole for planting a seed in his backyard that keeps him calm and non-violent while combatting the law of supply and demand that allows the Mexican Mafia to profit thus saving lives of law enforcement. Nope, we'd rather he be out spending his money, drinking and driving and waving his guns around or doped up on Merck Meds and Alcohol.
Here's an idea for a legislative change: why not encourage responsible gun control that would require anyone wanting the great responsibility of owning an arsenal have to take the same safety and law course policemen do? These teach case studies of when lethal force is appropriate and the consequences even officers have had to suffer for making that split second decision to pull the trigger. This might have been invaluable to the shooter who would have been better equipped to decide if his life was truly in danger or if it could have been handled with a call to 911 first, then a baseball bat, phone cord, neck tie or even his own two feet in the meantime.
Apparently though, 5-15yrs. somehow translates to 5mo. Great message for the next generation of lawmakers and the rational/logical thinking young adults running around screwing eachother.
Don "backasswards" common sense
> From: vision2020-request at moscow.com
> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 41, Issue 65
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:26:57 -0800
>
> Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Say What? (Part 3) (Tom Hansen)
> 2. WTF? (Garrett Clevenger)
> 3. Re: Just Curious (Dan Carscallen)
> 4. Just Curious (Garrett Clevenger)
> 5. Re: Just Curious (Joe Campbell)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:20:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Say What? (Part 3)
> To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Message-ID: <d473db0427dcb9bab2fe74a5a2f87c7b.squirrel at secure.fsr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> "This is my copy of the Constitution. And I'm going to stand here with our
> founding fathers who wrote in the preamble, 'We hold these truths to be
> self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by
> their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life,
> liberty and the pursuit of happiness.'"
>
> - House Minority Leader John Boehner at a TEA Party rally in Washington,
> DC (November 5, 2009)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvKOQA6qrhE
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>
> - Unknown
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:19:11 -0800 (PST)
> From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> Subject: [Vision2020] WTF?
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <201157.4576.qm at web84404.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> My ex-fiance is the woman who had a child with Tyler, the guy shot. My relationship with her ended 6 years ago, but we've kept in touch. She told me the scenario around why Tyler was shot.
>
> This isn't something that could be explained sufficiently by the papers, so it's understandable why people would question how the guy who killed Tyler could be released so soon.
>
> This was a love triangle gone bad by immature young adults. Tyler found out James was having an affair with the mother of Tyler's kid (my ex from long ago) and flipped out.
>
> James believed Tyler was out of control (Tyler had been whacked on drugs for days and had implied to my ex that he intended to die).
>
> If this guy came to your house threatening your family, what would you do? Waiting for help from the cops may have been to late.
>
> Tyler was shot in the heat of an argument that Tyler went looking for. James believed he had no choice but to defend himself and his family.
>
> The whole thing is tragic, but it's real. Crimes of passion are a leading cause of domestic violence.
>
> I don't condone what James did, but understand that the life of your family is something most people won't take lightly.
>
> Locking up James any longer would be a waste of money, and of his life. It would do James' family no good if he were locked up.
>
> I don't know James, but believe he is not a threat to society. He will be on parole, so if he is a bad guy, he will be monitored.
>
> Sometimes you gotta trust that the legal system works and that putting some people behind bars for crimes they didn't go looking for yet committed is a waste.
>
> James will be paying in many ways for taking the law into his own hands for the rest of his life. It is a shame that Tyler's family will be paying, too...
>
> Take home message: be careful who you threaten, or better yet, don't threaten anyone!
>
> Garrett Clevenger
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> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:25:07 -0800
> From: "Dan Carscallen" <areaman at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Message-ID: <F81B3DF9A1AC40AC9670022AA760ACBE at AWESOME>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've stayed out of this for the duration (believe me, I've written and deleted several responses in the last couple days) since I don't have a dog in this fight, but Wayne said the following and, while Wayne and I get along well enough (we plow his road, he brings us candy), I gotta step in for John on this one.
>
> Wayne writes:
>
> "Here's the irony of this whole thread: I would probably not even started it had Weber changed his official city biography back in April when its inaccuracy was brought to his attention, and when one quite vehement anti-Chaney person expressed to me some very strong misgivings about Weber (whom she had known for a long time) and his drinking habits"
>
> Here's a little more irony for ye: John Weber has nothing to do with the content of the city's website. We were asked in 2007 (or at least I was, John may have been asked in 2005) to give the city a little bio to put on the website. If I recall correctly, the change in 2007 to the new council on the website wasn't even made until March or April. No big deal. I figure each of our bios probably contains a touch of falsehood, since things change in two (or four) years (Wayne doesn't work for Martin's anymore, Tom's a grandpa, my wife's a paramedic, etc). I don't have a big problem with what goes on there, since I figure those who run the website have far more pressing issues to deal with, such as posting the agendas for the various committees, making sure the minutes and videos for various meetings are up, and keeping current events updated on the front page.
>
> Having said that, I think we can probably put this to bed since there's really no more reason to drag John through the mud. Nancy won, John lost.
>
> And I'm not really knocking Wayne, as I know he's a passionate man. We've worked together on projects since earlier this century (saying that makes it sound a lot longer than if I say "since about 2001") and while we may not always agree, I appreciate the tenacity and commitment he shows in the endeavors he pursues.
>
> your pal,
>
> DC
>
> P.S. a lot of this is why I'm pretty much the only member of the council that participates in the Vizzz. Most others don't like how some discussions devolve into yelling matches (you kind of abuse the exclaimation point, Joe ;^) ). I, on the other hand, have just enough orneriness in me, and maybe a thicker hide, that I still enjoy the discussions.
>
> DC
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> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:19:29 -0800 (PST)
> From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <386816.6574.qm at web84403.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dan writes:
>
> "a lot of this is why I'm pretty much the only member of the council that participates in the Vizzz."
>
>
> No one likes to put themself in front of a firing squad, especially one that can get a bit over passionate. There is a fine line between fanaticsm and being passionate about something. I know I've crossed it at times.
>
> I commend you, Dan Carscallen, for being willing to do engage with the list.
>
> It's too bad others are not willing to, too, because I think v2020 should be a more vital part of civics. We should appreciate, and utilize, this tool more.
>
> There are more people reading this than meets the eye, afterall. Hopefully they can filter out the bs and come to a reasonable conclusion about issues on their own...
> Garrett Clevenger
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> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:26:44 -0800
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Message-ID: <B299B557-8799-4E62-B9A1-A20E08540687 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> All philosphers? Or all people with philosophical beliefs? If I
> believe in God, am I wasting my time? Or does the time wasting start
> when I start talking about my beliefs?
>
> After holidays is fine! Joe
>
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Donovan Arnold
> <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > I think the conversation is childish. I think all philosophers waste
> > their time. :P. But it sure is fun doing it, isn't it?
> >
> > Logic is great! But it doesn't apply to humans because they aren't
> > logical in the least, are they? :)
> >
> > Lunch with you sounds fantastic. Unless of course it comes out of
> > the sea. I think, which perhaps the exception of tuna and salt,
> > anything in the sea ought the stay there. You will have to wait
> > until after the holidays though because I am working a lot of hours
> > until then.
> >
> > Your Friend,
> >
> > Donovan Arnold
> >
> > --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> > To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>, "<vision2020 at moscow.com>"
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 11:30 PM
> >
> > Are you saying, Donovan, that I'm wasting my time with childish
> > conversation?
> >
> > Let's have lunch, and talk about that. I'll buy.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Childish conversation, please take off site. THX.
> >>
> >> Donovan Arnold
> >>
> >> --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >> To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> >> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 10:33 PM
> >>
> >> I think we might have all gone on too long about this BUT part of
> >> the issue is did Wayne or anyone SAY anything about Weber on the V.
> >> Wayne says 'No' and I don't recall anything being said by anyone.
> >> So I believe him.
> >>
> >> I'll only add that I like each of Wayne, and Matt, and Keely, even
> >> though I've said some inappropriate things to each in the heat of
> >> the moment. Sorry about that to each of you! No doubt I'd like
> >> Weber, too, if I ever met him, and I don't give a damn what he does
> >> for a living or drinks for a beverage!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:07 PM, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> For heaven's sake, Wayne, you just wrote to me that he did have a
> >>> drinking problem. I think that's probably clear enough. And, for
> >>> the zillionth time, I think it's inappropriate -- hurtful, unkind
> >>> -- to bring it up.
> >>>
> >>> ?????
> >>>
> >>> Keely
> >>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: deco at moscow..com
> >>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:49:02 -0800
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>>
> >>> JFOR, Matt stop lying!
> >>>
> >>> I have never made such an assertion.
> >>>
> >>> Show V2020 anything that I asserted that even resembled "he's is
> >>> in and has been in an alcohol recovery program". You are free to
> >>> post all private correspondence between us on this subject.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> W.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Matt Decker
> >>> To: kjajmix1 at msn.com ; philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:59 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>>
> >>> I believe his words something to the effect of "he's is in and has
> >>> been in an alcohol recovery program". He never said alki but thats
> >>> the way most will take it. For that I apologize to Wayne.
> >>>
> >>> MD
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: kjajmix1 at msn.com
> >>> To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com; mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> >>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:31:45 -0800
> >>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>>
> >>> I must have missed Art Deco's saying that Weber was an "alki," but
> >>> if that happened, it's beyond regrettable and I hope Wayne
> >>> apologizes . . .
> >>>
> >>> Keely
> >>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >>> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> >>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:01:35 -0800
> >>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>>
> >>> One other thing. When someone brought up Weber's job as a
> >>> bartender, I did write on the V that that was irrelevant. Maybe
> >>> you have a better opinion of me if you stopped distorting what I
> >>> say and stopped conveniently forgetting the posts I write that you
> >>> agree with.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Joe,
> >>>
> >>> Exactly Joe, "what has anyone done on the left that you
> >>> have complained about"?
> >>>
> >>> To clarify when I stated negativity or mudslinging goes both ways,
> >>> I was not just meaning around here. I believe our town has a wide
> >>> variety of faces and opinions all worthy. But dont for one minute
> >>> think that the good ol nasty mudslinging doesnt happen both ways.
> >>>
> >>> Ex.
> >>>
> >>> Art deco claiming Weber is an alki and mentioning how he works at
> >>> the club. How does he know? Is Art a drinking buddy? What is the
> >>> purpose of stating he works at a bar. Answer: To BELITTLE
> >>>
> >>> Another one
> >>>
> >>> A lady wrote an opinion piece in the daily news about two weeks
> >>> ago mentioning how she won't vote for Weber or Brown because of
> >>> "these" obnoxious signs around town. How all the money raised by
> >>> the GMA is being wasted on signs. Low and behold the facts come
> >>> out showing that Chaney has made more money along with Reese
> >>> raising more than Weber. Also, Chaney having the samne size signs
> >>> all throughout Moscow.
> >>>
> >>> Lastly for the night
> >>>
> >>> You
> >>>
> >>> "This is why the radical right movement is such a joke. They promote
> >>> the view that government is out of touch and corrupt yet their
> >>> candidate for mayor needs a third party to communicate and their
> >>> state
> >>> senator likes to circumvent the democratic process with last minute
> >>> stunts, like this weekend's letter".
> >>>
> >>> Along with referring to our city council as "joke radicals". Care
> >>> to explain?
> >>>
> >>> Your last page excuse, mentioning how you never said they are
> >>> radicals, looks weird to me from the above statements.
> >>>
> >>> Joe can you imagine if I said the radical left movement on this
> >>> site. But then again I wouldn't do that. Just like I don't expect
> >>> that from you.
> >>>
> >>> Take care
> >>>
> >>> MD
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >>> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 07:20:10 -0800
> >>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>
> >>> Give me a break! What exactly has anyone from the left done that I
> >>> have complained about? Give ONE example? There is none.
> >>>
> >>> Again, what IS radical if circumventing the Democratic process is
> >>> not? And if you've been paying attention, it wasn't the first
> >>> time. It is a regular occurence. What IS radical if having
> >>> connections with a group on the Southern Poverty Law Center watch
> >>> list is not?
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 3, 2009, at 7:03 AM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> So why not complain when the left does it Joe? Don't tell me they
> >>> don't.
> >>>
> >>> Both sides do and I don't agree with it. But, to label Gary as a
> >>> radical, is a little far fetched in my opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Gotta work
> >>>
> >>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >>> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> >>> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:46:04 -0800
> >>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>>
> >>> Another thing: if circumventing the Democratic process is not
> >>> radical enough, what is?
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Ok. So is he radical?
> >>>
> >>> M
> >>>
> >>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >>> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:54:38 -0800
> >>> CC: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>
> >>> Matt,
> >>>
> >>> He quoted the sitting mayor from a confidential letter leaked on
> >>> Dale Courtney's website. At least that was the source according to
> >>> his website when I checked it this morning.
> >>>
> >>> He also quoted Nancy out of context. And he did it all while
> >>> hiding his source. Why did he hide the source? Well one reason is
> >>> that we'd figure out the quote was out of context. You guess the
> >>> other reason.
> >>>
> >>> I'm for information, not distortion. That's democracy for me. Give
> >>> me the info and I'll decide. And when my guy resorts to this sort
> >>> of crap, I tell him to hit the road.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 2, 2009, at 10:08 PM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Not so sure Schroeder is radical right. Do you think he is in the
> >>> same as Limbaugh and Hannity?
> >>>
> >>> > From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >>> > To: thansen at moscow.com
> >>> > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:03:38 -0800
> >>> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just Curious
> >>> >
> >>> > This is why the radical right movement is such a joke. They
> >>> promote
> >>> > the view that government is out of touch and corrupt yet their
> >>> > candidate for mayor needs a third party to communicate and their
> >>> state
> >>> > senator likes to circumvent the democratic process with last
> >>> minute
> >>> > stunts, like this weekend's letter.
> >>> >
> >>> > Sent from my iPhone
> >>> >
> >>> > On Nov 2, 2009, at 5:26 PM, "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > Bottom line, Wayne . . .
> >>> > >
> >>> > > If the mayor is not accessible by the people, how is that mayor
> >>> > > going to
> >>> > > represent those people?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Mayor Chaney responds to public email inquiries regularly.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Here it is the night before election day and the people of
> >>> Moscow
> >>> > > don't
> >>> > > even know if John Weber even checks his email.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Why does John Weber respond to the people of Moscow, DURING HIS
> >>> > > ELECTION
> >>> > > CAMPAIGN, through a third party (Greg Kimberling)?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > If John Weber is elected mayor, will Greg Kimberling be Mayor
> >>> Weber's
> >>> > > communication link with the people of Moscow?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Seeya at the polls, Moscow.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Tom Hansen
> >>> > > Moscow, Idaho
> >>> > >
> >>> > > "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects
> >>> it to
> >>> > > change
> >>> > > and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> >>> > >
> >>> > > - Unknown
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > =======================================================
> >>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>> > > http://www.fsr.net
> >>> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> > > =======================================================
> >>> >
> >>> > =======================================================
> >>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>> > http://www.fsr.net
> >>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> > =======================================================
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> >>
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> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> =======================================================
> >>
> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >>
> >> =======================================================
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> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>
> End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 41, Issue 65
> ******************************************
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