[Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 35, Issue 30

Fri May 8 11:42:28 PDT 2009

The name of the dog is insignificant to the story and use of the word here would seem frivilous. 

Use of the word in Roots, Tuskagee Airmen, Huck Finn or American History X is telling of the times and doesn't seem to condone it's use.

Use of the word in Blazing Saddles is despicable and had the opposite effect causing me to shut it off maybe 10 minutes in.

Don

> From: vision2020-request at moscow.com
> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 35, Issue 30
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:41:55 -0700
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. How to Handle Political Correctness in the Interest of Real
> History? (bear at moscow.com)
> 2. Re: How to Handle Political Correctness in the Interest of
> Real History? (Paul Rumelhart)
> 3. Re: Nation of Laws (Gier, Nicholas)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 20:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: bear at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] How to Handle Political Correctness in the
> Interest of Real History?
> To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <ef56966877291903debdb3bf1c5c9913.squirrel at secure.fsr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Visionaries,
> 
> I ran across this article about a remake of a WW2 movie and wanted some
> input from the great "unwashed masses" so to speak, of how to handle real
> history in the age of political correctness.
> 
> Should the poor dogs real name, in the interest of political correctness,
> be changed?
> 
> I fought this battle before in the Army when I was teaching military
> history and wondering what your thoughts are on it. The incident of
> history that I ran into was that prior to his rise to command all of the
> US troops in Europe during WW1, General John Pershing was called "Nigger
> Jack" by his contemporaries to derisively refer to his being in command
> of black troops rather than white soldiers. The popular thought at the
> time was that he never commanded real troops, just black ones. It was a
> startling discovery at the time I was doing the research, that because of
> the army promotion system, Captain Pershing couldn't be promoted to
> Colonel by the President of the US, but Teddy Roosevelt, solved the
> problem by promoting him to Brigadier General which he was able to do.
> 
> NEW DAMBUSTERS MOVIE
> "Dog's name in Dambusters remake causes headache for filmmakers
> It is not the full-scale replica of a Lancaster bomber nor the special
> effects that are causing problems for the makers of a multimillion-pound
> remake of the classic British war movie The Dam Busters.
> The Lord of the Rings trilogy director Peter Jackson is producing the ?21
> million movie, to be filmed in Britain and New Zealand, and he has
> promised to be true to the original story.
> However RAF hero Guy Gibson, head of the mission that destroyed German
> dams during the Second World War, had a dog called Nigger and filmmakers
> are now wondering whether they dare utter the N-word in 2009.
> The canine with the politically incorrect name, who featured in the 1951
> book The Dam Busters, was mentioned 12 times in the 1954 film starring Sir
> Michael Redgrave."
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 21:36:24 -0700
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How to Handle Political Correctness in the
> Interest of Real History?
> To: bear at moscow.com
> Cc: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID: <4A03B6C8.7090406 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Personally, I'd prefer historical accuracy over political correctness. 
> I'm sure I'm not alone. The use of the "N-word" would probably be even 
> more effective today in highlighting the cultural differences between 
> the two time periods.
> 
> Our silly overreactions to these things need to be tamped down. People 
> should, in my opinion, take context into account. The use of the word 
> in a historical context should be just fine, in the name of 
> authenticity. Getting bent out of shape about it doesn't serve us as a 
> culture very well. Stop it's use as an aggressive slur against a 
> segment of our society, sure. But ban it because someone might find the 
> word itself offensive, even when it's not being used in a negative way 
> (except in the context of the movie or book or whatever)? Probably 
> going too far.
> 
> Paul
> 
> bear at moscow.com wrote:
> > Visionaries,
> >
> > I ran across this article about a remake of a WW2 movie and wanted some
> > input from the great "unwashed masses" so to speak, of how to handle real
> > history in the age of political correctness.
> >
> > Should the poor dogs real name, in the interest of political correctness,
> > be changed?
> >
> > I fought this battle before in the Army when I was teaching military
> > history and wondering what your thoughts are on it. The incident of
> > history that I ran into was that prior to his rise to command all of the
> > US troops in Europe during WW1, General John Pershing was called "Nigger
> > Jack" by his contemporaries to derisively refer to his being in command
> > of black troops rather than white soldiers. The popular thought at the
> > time was that he never commanded real troops, just black ones. It was a
> > startling discovery at the time I was doing the research, that because of
> > the army promotion system, Captain Pershing couldn't be promoted to
> > Colonel by the President of the US, but Teddy Roosevelt, solved the
> > problem by promoting him to Brigadier General which he was able to do.
> >
> > NEW DAMBUSTERS MOVIE
> > "Dog's name in Dambusters remake causes headache for filmmakers
> > It is not the full-scale replica of a Lancaster bomber nor the special
> > effects that are causing problems for the makers of a multimillion-pound
> > remake of the classic British war movie The Dam Busters.
> > The Lord of the Rings trilogy director Peter Jackson is producing the ?21
> > million movie, to be filmed in Britain and New Zealand, and he has
> > promised to be true to the original story.
> > However RAF hero Guy Gibson, head of the mission that destroyed German
> > dams during the Second World War, had a dog called Nigger and filmmakers
> > are now wondering whether they dare utter the N-word in 2009.
> > The canine with the politically incorrect name, who featured in the 1951
> > book The Dam Busters, was mentioned 12 times in the 1954 film starring Sir
> > Michael Redgrave."
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
> > http://www.fsr.net 
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:40:36 -0700
> From: "Gier, Nicholas" <NGIER at uidaho.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
> To: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID:
> <E56F42817870B1419AD874AF42906A7B247FA4 at EXVS2.its.uidaho.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Roger,
> 
> Perhaps you missed my e-mail verifying that the attack on LA was thwarted BEFORE any torture was authorized. Your avoidance of both logic and facts continues to amaze me.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of lfalen
> Sent: Thu 5/7/2009 10:43 AM
> To: bear at moscow.com
> Cc: vision 2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
> 
> Bear
> Parts of this is correct. I would disagree with the embarrassed part. It is true that most of the major figures were Saudis.
> I am not a big fan of their government either. The terrorist came from everywhere(most were Saudi), but the Saudi government did not support them. I never said that past occurrences were a justification for the present or future. In fact I said just the opposite. I was just pointing out that Andreas was wrong when he said that it never occurred. I agree that any enhanced techniques should be used with caution and that "good cop" methods should be used first. But I still maintain that when gentle methods fail and it is thought that valuable information can be obtained by waterboarding that would save lives, it is justified. Of all the detainees at GIMO only three were watereboarded. Information was obtained from KSM that did overt an attack on Los Angles. For that reason I think that it was justified in this case. I would still say that it should be used selectively and only in severe cases. It should never be used as a matter of routine on all prisoners.I would agree that !
> brutal
> methods that cause bodily injure and inflect severe pain, such as pulling out fingernails or hanging them up by there genitals should never be used.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: bear at moscow.com
> Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 14:08:32 -0700
> To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
> 
> > Under American law, TORTURE is illegal PERIOD.
> > 
> > The only reason torture was authorized and institutionalized by the
> > Bushites was THEY WERE EMBARRASSED! They were asleep at the switch and
> > wanted revenge, so they struck out at the weakest countries in the middle
> > east, NOT the ones that were actually involved! The 9/11 bombers were
> > Saudi Arabians, Bushite friends, they were not from Afghanistan or Iraq!
> > And what country do you think Osama Bin Laden is from? SAUDI ARABIA. Osama
> > bin Laden was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on 10 March 1957. His father
> > Muhammed Awad bin Laden was a wealthy businessman with close ties to the
> > Saudi royal family.
> > 
> > And Great Britain NEVER institutionalized torture the way the Bushites
> > did, nor was it the POLICY of the US to torture during WW2. Did it happen,
> > I'm sure individual acts of torture were committed by all sides. And what
> > about genocide? OUR allies murdered some 25,000
> > Polish military officers, teachers and civil servants during the war.
> > 
> > Now, depending on how far you want to go back, the American Indians, who
> > could be considered terrorists, tortured, and I'm sure the cavalry did
> > too, BUT again, it was never institutionalized or rationalized.
> > 
> > THE big problem with institutionalizing it is, where do you stop? For
> > instance, IF it's ok to torture terrorists, why can't we torture
> > kidnappers, or murderers who's victims bodies have not yet been found?
> > Why not torture fraudulent investors until the show us were they hid the
> > money?
> > 
> > VERY SLIPPERY SLOPE
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Sunil
> > > You are twisting my meaning. Torture is not to be promoted. Getting
> > > information by soft techniques is to be preferred. All I am saying is that
> > > if information cannot be obtained any other way and the interrogator will
> > > not use methods such as waterboarding to get information that might
> > > prevent and attack on us for fear of being prosecuted, then that is
> > > cowardice.
> > > Andreas is wrong on several points. Britain did use torture according to
> > > the broad definition on SS an Gestapo prisoner.
> > > thepurplecenter.blogspot.com
> > > blogs.dailymail/donsurber/goo/05/01/82831
> > > 1nfromationi:peparation.com
> > > freeinternentpress.com
> > > There have been reports that the US used torture in World War II also.
> > > This has been reported in the Socialist Worker. A group of former World
> > > War II vets supposedly reported this as part of the protest against Bush.
> > > This may be so but I do not think the are a credible source. This needs
> > > other verification.
> > > The Union Army used torture in the Civil War. Documented cases involve the
> > > torture of some of 'Quantrill's Raiders and some tortured southern Women.
> > > See The Fate of Liberty by Mark E Neely Jr. and Virginia's Civil War by
> > > Peter Wallenstein.
> > > Therer were some northern prisoner of war camps where the prisoners were
> > > treated very poorly. They just are not as well known as Andersoinville.
> > > None of this of course should be used to justify current treatment.
> > > I think Andreas is also wrong on the Geniva Convention. This applies to
> > > Enemy Combatants in uniform. Those not in uniform can be shot.
> > > Hypothetical situation. It is thought that a prisoner has information
> > > about a lethal weapon soon to be realesd that will wipe out most of
> > > humanity and soft techniques have not worked. Would you still confine
> > > interrogations to setting down with them for milk and cookies? Keep in
> > > mind that these are not your average moslems but fanatics that think that
> > > the more people they take with them the greater the glory to them.
> > > There was a ray of hope in Obama's recent talk. He said in response to a
> > > question that he would do what ever was necessary to prevent an attack on
> > > the US. This is only a glimmer of hope however an Obama's play book seems
> > > to be "The Prince" by Macheavelli.
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:32:47 -0700
> > > To: vision 2020 vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Roger,
> > >>
> > >> Andreas has already talked about how civil disobedience demonstrates
> > >> that existing laws are unjust. I cannot comprehend how you can compare
> > >> civil disobedience to laws banning torture.
> > >>
> > >> Are you saying laws banning torture are unjust?
> > >>
> > >> You keep saying that to fail to torture in order to save lives is
> > >> cowardice. We clearly view 'cowardice' in different ways.
> > >>
> > >> I think a coward is a person who would order torture, or who would
> > >> him/herself torture a prisoner. The prisoner is helpless and in
> > >> custody. The captor has complete and total control of that person. To
> > >> torture such a helpless person is a monstrous act of cowardice and is
> > >> despicable.
> > >>
> > >> Yet you are accusing the law-abiding person who refuses to torture of
> > >> cowardice.
> > >>
> > >> You otherwise seem to be decent, but I find the things you say on this
> > >> issue incredible. Last week you said that a person who fails to torture
> > >> a captive should be prosecuted for dereliction of duty. So you want to
> > >> abuse governmental power to prosecute the law-abiding.
> > >>
> > >> You call that a nation of laws? I don't.
> > >>
> > >> Sunil
> > >>
> > >> > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:14:09 -0700
> > >> > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > >> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> > Subject: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
> > >> >
> > >> > For some reason "reply all" did not work on your post.
> > >> > Yes I thing we should be a Nation of Laws. To not be would result in
> > >> anarchy or a dictatorship.
> > >> > This does not mean that we should blinding follow all laws. Laws that
> > >> violate peoples freedom or put us in harms way in national security
> > >> should be opposed even at the peril of going to jail as those in the
> > >> civil rights movement did. To do other wise is cowardice.
> > >> > Roger
> > >> >
> > >> > =======================================================
> > >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> > =======================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> =======================================================
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> End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 35, Issue 30
> ******************************************

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