[Vision2020] Nation of Laws

[Paul Rumelhart]

Roger,  here's the thing.  For all I know, you might have information vital to the defense of this nation against the threat of terrorism.  How will I know until I waterboard you?

What this country needs is the will to investigate 9/11 and all it's sundry connections.  I still don't understand why we took a military/security theater approach instead of unleashing our best investigators world-wide on the problem.  We should all be sick to death by now of new information coming to light about 9/11 and it's aftermath just like we were sick to death of OJ's trial.  Then, perhaps, we wouldn't need to simulate the drowning of terrorist suspects in order to get fresh information.  Nor would we be manufacturing new enemies on a daily basis.  

Some of the people at Gitmo were either brought in under the bounty system by people trying to make a quick buck, or were simply fighting back against an armed invasion of their country.  Who knows how many?  We were more concerned with fighting in Iraq than actually finding out answers.  At this point, we may never know exactly what happened and why.

Paul

--- On Wed, 5/6/09, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 12:38 PM

Sunil
You are twisting my meaning. Torture is not to be promoted. Getting information by soft techniques is to be preferred. All I am saying is that if information cannot be obtained any other way and the interrogator will not use methods such as waterboarding to get information that might prevent and attack on us for fear of being prosecuted, then that is cowardice.  
Andreas is wrong on several points. Britain did use torture according to the broad definition on SS an Gestapo prisoner.
thepurplecenter.blogspot.com
blogs.dailymail/donsurber/goo/05/01/82831
1nfromationi:peparation.com
freeinternentpress.com
There have been reports that the US used torture in World War II also. This has been reported in the Socialist Worker. A group of former World War II vets supposedly reported this as part of the protest against Bush. This may be so but I do not think the are a credible source. This needs other verification.
The Union Army used torture in the Civil War. Documented cases involve the torture of some of 'Quantrill's Raiders  and some tortured southern Women. See The Fate of Liberty by Mark E Neely Jr.  and Virginia's Civil War by Peter Wallenstein.
Therer were some northern prisoner of war camps  where the prisoners were treated very poorly. They just are not as well known as Andersoinville.
None of this of course should be used to justify current treatment.
I think Andreas is also wrong on the Geniva Convention. This applies to Enemy Combatants in uniform. Those not in uniform can be shot.
Hypothetical situation. It is thought that a prisoner has information about a lethal weapon soon to be realesd that will wipe out most of humanity and soft techniques have not worked. Would you still confine interrogations to setting down with them for milk and cookies? Keep in mind that these are not your average moslems but fanatics that think that the more people they take with them the greater the glory to them.
There was a ray of hope in Obama's recent talk. He said in response to a question that he would do what ever was necessary to prevent an attack on the US. This is only a glimmer of hope however an Obama's play book seems to be "The Prince" by  Macheavelli.

-----Original message-----
From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:32:47 -0700
To: vision 2020 vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger,
> 
> Andreas has already talked about how civil disobedience demonstrates that existing laws are unjust. I cannot comprehend how you can compare civil disobedience to laws banning torture.
> 
> Are you saying laws banning torture are unjust?
> 
> You keep saying that to fail to torture in order to save lives is cowardice.  We clearly view 'cowardice' in different ways.
> 
> I think a coward is a person who would order torture, or who would him/herself torture a prisoner.  The prisoner is helpless and in custody. The captor has complete and total control of that person. To torture such a helpless person is a monstrous act of cowardice and is despicable.
> 
> Yet you are accusing the law-abiding person who refuses to torture of cowardice. 
> 
> You otherwise seem to be decent, but I find the things you say on this issue incredible. Last week you said that a person who fails to torture a captive should be prosecuted for dereliction of duty. So you want to abuse governmental power to prosecute the law-abiding. 
> 
> You call that a nation of laws? I don't.
> 
> Sunil
> 
> > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:14:09 -0700
> > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Nation of Laws
> > 
> > For some reason "reply all" did not work on your post.
> > Yes I thing we should be a Nation of Laws. To not be would result in anarchy or a dictatorship.
> > This does not mean that we should blinding follow all laws. Laws that violate peoples freedom or put us in harms way in national security should be opposed even at the peril of going to jail as those in the civil rights movement did. To  do other wise is cowardice.
> > Roger
> > 
> > =======================================================
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> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> 
> 

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