[Vision2020] Say What?

Sun Mar 29 14:20:16 PDT 2009

What an odd conclusion to draw from what I wrote . . . 

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:55:53 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: chasuk at gmail.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

Keely writes,

"I said that when enormous wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few, as is the case in Mexico, and those very few share a set of characteristics -- male, lighter-skinned, urban, Church-approved, etc. -- it's not a stretch to conclude that an evil world system, not the beauty of the free market, is responsible."

WOW! I didn't know you were so sexist and racist in your world view. Now you think it is white men who believe in God who are responsible for the evil, poverty and inequality in the world? Perhaps you and the President of Brazil should create a world without white blue-eyed men and churches so you can have a socialist egalitarian utopia where the world offers nothing but sunshine and lollipops for everyone. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Sun, 3/29/09, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Charles Warren" <chasuk at gmail.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:28 PM

(I'm having problems with my laptop, so my apologies if you get multiple copies of this -- the "send" button is sticking)

I didn't say that all wealthy people committed crimes to get there, Donovan.  I said that when enormous wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few, as is the case in Mexico, and those very few share a set of characteristics -- male, lighter-skinned, urban, Church-approved, etc. -- it's not a stretch to conclude that an evil world system, not the beauty of the free market, is responsible.

One of those symptoms of an evil world system is patriarchy, which is more than "men ruling over women."  It's "men ruling over everyone else" in their circles, and it too often gives rise to corruption, crime, and unjust wealth accumulation.  When the playing field is level, truly just and equal, then the free market is a great thing.  When the field is tilted, pitted, muddied, rutted, and strung with trip
 wires, the market becomes an instrument of evil.

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:16:36 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: chasuk at gmail.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

Keely,

It is unsettling that you assume people that produce wealth are guilty of some crime. 

Wealth is not finite. If I work hard and am productive in creating 90 tomatoes from my garden and my four neighbors only grow 10 combined, there was no crime here. Nor should I be obligated to divide up my tomatoes to the other 4 neighbors so we each have 20. Because if I was, I would no longer grow so many tomatoes because I would not be rewarded for my hard work and productivity.  

If my four neighbors want to be productive, they can be too. They can grow 2 or 200 tomatoes. I might be willing to help out my neighbors, but my success and their failure to produce from their gardens are not interdependent, there is not a limited number of tomatoes I am hording. I just have 90% because I was more productive, not because I stole tomatoes or preventing my neighbors from growing their own. 

Wealth is not a limited finite supply. A country produces it, or is doesn't. The ones that are highly productive are not preventing ones that are not highly productive from producing, nor should they be required to surrender all their productivity to nations that don't produce for their own political, social, religious, or economic reasons. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Sun, 3/29/09, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Charles Warren" <chasuk at gmail.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 8:43 AM

I never make the presumption, in cases of 90-10 wealth distribution, that those who have the most have worked the hardest for it.  I do recall that in a fallen world, oppression runs wild and power coagulates . . . 

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:46:24 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: chasuk at gmail.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com
CC: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Keely,

You write:

"I have to conclude that, as is the case in most Latin American countries, this is an example of the injustice of some 90 percent of the wealth being safely lodged in the hands of 10 percent of the people . . . "

Why is it unfair that 10% of the people have 90% of the world's wealth if they produced it? Did you not earn your wealth? Do you think it is fair that I take your money and give it to the bottom 90% since you are wealthier than 90% of the world?

Pehaps what we should ask instead is, how can we work to improve the living conditions of 90% of the world? Not how we can take from those that produce and give to those that do not. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Sat, 3/28/09, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: "Charles Warren" <chasuk at gmail.com>
Cc: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Saturday, March 28, 2009, 10:18 PM

I stand corrected on Mexico's position as the 12th wealthiest country in the world -- I think -- and so find it all the more appalling that so much poverty exists.  I have to conclude that, as is the case in most Latin American countries, this is an example of the injustice of some 90 percent of the wealth being safely lodged in the hands of 10 percent of the people . . . 

Thanks, Chas --

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:59:46 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> From: chasuk at gmail.com
> To: kjajmix1 at msn.com
> CC: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> 
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 19:21, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> > I would be interested in seeing evidence that Mexico is the 12th wealthiest country in the world.
> 
> Mexico is currently
 the 13th wealthiest country in the world according
> to the IMF, if you count the EU as one nation, instead of as Austria,
> Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia,
> Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia,
> Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal,
> Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom,
> none of which singly would have nominal GDPs greater than that of he
> United States, so it is arguable how any readjustment would effect the
> final results.

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