[Vision2020] More Banning?

[Joe Campbell]

Good points, Saundra. I didn't know that Bucers restricted women from  
the smoking room. Does anyone know if they still have that policy? I  
haven't been there since Michael Metzler left town.

Joe Campbell

On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:46 PM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm>  
wrote:

> Hi Wayne,
>
> You wrote:
> "What do you think about the way Bucers has their set up?"
>
> I'm afraid I can't offer any comment because women aren't allowed  
> inside the
> smoking room at Bucers, or at least we weren't when I tried to go a  
> few
> years back.  <shaking my head>  It's such a ludicrous thing to type  
> in the
> 21st century:  no women allowed.  Frankly, if the City Council wants  
> to
> stick its nose in such matters as mandating smoking bans, I'd be far  
> more
> interested in the cause had they addressed the gender discrimination  
> by
> Bucers.  But, that's a different issue.
>
> I really have no dog in this fight -- while I’m a smoker, I rarely v 
> isit our
> local bars -- but I do have a couple of comments <g>.
>
> First, I think it's a stunningly stupid move on the part of the City  
> to even
> consider such a move during tough economic times.  Have we not  
> enough dark
> business space already?
>
> Second, I really think the city should get an adequate handle on  
> things
> currently on its plate before taking on new enforcement  
> responsibilities.
> For instance, let's talk snow removal enforcement as just one  
> example  :-)
> Yes, we've had a couple of hard winters in a row, but even in mild  
> winters,
> there are sidewalks that aren't shoveled for weeks on end, which  
> presents a
> serious public safety hazard that is ignored by the city.  Streets  
> can't be
> adequately plowed because the city refuses to address the issue of  
> cars left
> on the streets for weeks at a time.  The resulting narrow roads are  
> a safety
> hazard for all who travel on them, including emergency vehicles.   
> So.  Why
> on earth the city thinks it should take on a smoking ban in bars to  
> the
> detriment of small businesses when it is woefully inadequate at  
> enforcing
> rules already on the books is beyond me.
>
> Third, for those who object to smoke in bars, for the love of God,  
> COME UP
> WITH YOUR OWN ALTERNATIVES rather than trying to force existing  
> business
> owners to cater to your needs.  Isn't that exactly the kind of  
> situation the
> free market should address.  Certainly, there are smoke-free bars, so
> patronize them.  They don't have pool tables?  Then convince an  
> investor --
> or band together yourselves -- to start up a business to suit your  
> needs.
> Granted, you wouldn't have a liquor license immediately, but had you  
> tried
> to solve your own problem rather than whine and force government to  
> ram your
> desires to eliminate lawful behavior that will likely cause some local
> businesses to fail, you could have had exactly what you want by  
> now.  Lord
> knows there's plenty of dark retail spaces you could check into, and  
> had you
> attempted to solve your problem rather than getting government to do  
> it for
> you, you could have a nice setting or four that would suit your  
> needs rather
> than advocating a ridiculous position that will hurt local business.
>
> Fourth, with respect to Ted's case, I reject it.  No one is forcing  
> anyone
> to work in bars where there's second-hand smoke exposure.  For those  
> who
> choose to not expose themselves to second-hand smoke, then DON'T  
> APPLY FOR
> JOBS WHERE SMOKING IS ALLOWED!  Indeed, I find it incredibly  
> hypocritical
> that some of those complaining about second-hand smoke exposure  
> explicitly
> choose to work in bars rather than smoke-free restaurants or other
> smoke-free settings precisely because they can make better tips in  
> bars, and
> a good portion of those tips come from smokers.  I've yet to see  
> anyone who
> objects to working in an environment where there's second-hand smoke
> exposure refuse to take tips from smokers.  There's an ethical  
> position for
> you  :-)
>
> Fifth, what's next?  I think <tongue in cheek> we should outlaw the  
> sales &
> operation of inefficient motor vehicles in Moscow because they are  
> bad for
> the environment, which means they are bad for all of us.  What about
> donorcycles -- we should all be aware of the significant impact on  
> health
> care costs for all of us from those who choose to ride motorcycles.   
> And, if
> we want to talk about health risks, then let's go after restaurants  
> that
> serve red meat because you'd have to live in a cave to not know that  
> the
> consumption of red meat is linked to lots of health problems  
> including heart
> disease, which is THE leading cause of death in this country.  And,  
> what
> about those vegetarian employees working in restaurants with no  
> vegetarian
> options?!  Quite often, an indirect compensation for restaurant  
> employees is
> free or reduced prices on meals while working, yet if the restaurant  
> doesn't
> offer any vegetarian options . . . so perhaps we should get the City  
> to pass
> a law mandating that ALL restaurants offer vegetarian option.  Yeah --
> that's the ticket!
>
> Sixth, I don't know Bill Parks, but I will say that I might be more
> sympathetic to his cause had he thrown his weight behind the  
> significant
> concerns for Moscow's air quality problem from allowing bonfires in
> neighborhoods.  *That* is an issue that affects entire  
> neighborhoods . . .
> and the quality of life for people in their own homes and on their own
> property, yet I don't recall him addressing that.  Instead, he'd  
> rather have
> the government address social & the business concerns of others.
>
> If what's been posted is accurate (I don't know if it is), I can't  
> imagine
> Mr. Parks would be too happy if Moscow decided to outlaw the sale of
> products manufactured outside the country -- my guess would be he  
> would
> vigorously object to local government messing with the legal  
> activities of
> the free market in that respect.  It's really too bad he fails to  
> see the
> correlation . . .
>
> Am I missing something?  Isn't any business owner interested able to  
> operate
> a bar or tavern where smoking is prohibited???  Again let Parks &  
> those who
> share his concern open & operate their own smoke-free venue rather  
> than
> trying to get the government to force others' businesses to do  
> things His
> way.  Isn't that what the free market is supposed to do?
>
>
> JMHO,
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people  
> to do
> nothing.
> ~ Edmund Burke
>
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through  
> life plus
> 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce  
> outside
> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> author.*****
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
> ]
> On Behalf Of bear at moscow.com
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 4:22 PM
> To: Ted Moffett
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?
>
>
> Ted,
>
> What about something less draconian than a ban? What about a physical
> separation with air exchangers? What do you think about the way  
> Bucers has
> their set up?
>
> I can tell you that as a smoker, I am less inclined to compromise with
> total bans and advocates of total bans when their interests are up for
> consideration later. And I vote.  There has to be a middle ground
> somewhere.
>
> And you mention that  keeping bars smoke free is a benefit to the  
> workers
> in these businesses who need the jobs yet are exposed to second hand
> smoke. In the case here in Moscow, I don't even think the employees  
> were
> even asked. Based on the tape I saw of the meeting before city  
> council on
> the 18th of May, it was an individual that is a bar customer, and  
> from his
> comments, I have to believe he was talking about Mingles. So,  
> because he
> doesn't like the smoky atmosphere in Mingles,  all of the bars in  
> Moscow
> have to ban smoking?
>
> I just think much more research needs to be done to see IF there is a
> problem before the Council passes a ban. The quick, knee jerk  
> reaction,
> the simple solution to the problem IF there is one, is to pass a ban.
>
>
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