[Vision2020] Fwd: Apology, bias, and the holocaust

[Joe Campbell]

Roger,

For the life of me I cannot figure out why you keep reading things
into my comments. Did I ever SAY that all hate speech comes from the
right? No. So why think that I believe that? I certainly don't think
that all conservatives are bigots, or approve of hate speech, etc. I
have on occasion praised conservatives like Tom Trail, who does a lot
for the community and is a great asset in Boise. I've said nice things
about several of the GMA councilmen -- especially Dan. Of course, I
recently said something nasty about Dan, too, which I apologized for,
so I'm not pretending I'm perfect. I'm not. There are times where I've
been critical of those on the left, too, but this all gets lost. I've
now spent about as much time serving on the board for the Kenworthy --
a non-political organization with members from the left, right, and
center -- as I spent serving on the MCA board but has that ever been
mentioned by any of my critics on the V? Not once. I'm not alone in
this either, by the way, since the same is true of most if not all of
the MCA board members. Is that ever mentioned when discussion of the
MCA comes up, their overall contributions to the community, which are
significant? No it hasn't.

And on what do you base your claim that I am "incapable of seeing any
fault on the left"? I've engaged in conversations defending religious
beliefs, especially conservative Catholic beliefs, with people from
the left on several occasions. And this is not because I'm Catholic,
I'm not. Nor do I agree with the beliefs I defended, though my own
views are influenced by my Catholic upbringing. When Aaron Ament was
criticized for calling NSA students "androids" I asked him, on the V,
to apologize. He didn't, which is his decision (and in some ways I
don't blame him given what some of those folks have done to him) but I
did ask him to. Did anyone from the right ever take notice of this?
Not you, even though you participated in some of those discussions, so
you should know better. There is no basis for your claim. It is a
false claim with numerous counterexamples, only some of which I've
mentioned. It is a claim that has some impact on my reputation and you
owe me an apology though I won't get one.

I'll be honest with you also: if ONE person from the right ever told
Crabtree to shut the hell up after one of his over the top, slanderous
comments about my character I might stick up for you guys even more.
But it has NEVER happened. Not once. So don't complain to me about the
problems on the V. You don't do much to help them. There is no
left-wing monkey on your back, wrecking your reputation every time you
try to state your views on some political issue.

Enough about me. I want to take issue with some other claims you make below.
You say: "The guy at the holocaust Memorial had more in common with
the left." As far as I can tell the only support you have to offer for
this claim is "He hated Bush, he thought the 9/11 attack was a
conspiracy by Bush, He thought that the moslems were innocent." This
is an ANTI-GOVERNMENT guy, not a liberal. He hates Obama, as well.
Again, anti-government sentiment of this sort began with the election
of the 1994, when Republicans took over Congress, as I stated in
another post addressed to you. I'll admit that folks like this don't
easily fall into the left-right divide. But it is absurd to say the
shooter has "more in common with the left." That is just the new story
that Glen Beck and his Fox friends are trying to spin. I heard Beck
given this same argument -- and many of the other arguments you give
-- on the news yesterday.

My main point was that there is a connection between the kind of
right-wing rhetoric you hear on Fox news and other places that
contributes to that insanity. I posted two NY Times articles which
made the case more carefully than I did, with explicit examples. I've
challenged folks to come up with similar examples from the left media
and the BEST that anyone could do is note a Fresh Air interview with
someone FROM Fox news. (I'm pretty sure that the Nina quotes did not
come from a NEWS show.) So if you think that  the left is just as bad
as Fox in this regard, then support your claim. After all, Fox is (by
your lights) the only right-wing news source, so with all the others
you should be able to find at least as many examples of bias as were
illustrated in the NY Times articles. I'm just asking you to support
your claims, that is all.

But the assertion that Fox is the only non-liberal news source is
false also. At various times in my life I've subscribed to the Wall
Street Journal and the Christian Science Monitor. I often buy the
Economist magazine. All of these are conservative news sources that
are perfectly fine. Fox is something entirely different. It is radical
right-wing not just right-wing. And it is a bunch of crap!

I spent a large portion of the day yesterday listening to Fox radio
and watching Fox news. You cannot go for more than 5 minutes without
hearing a fallacy -- begging the question, appeal to authority, appeal
to popularity, ad hominem argument, etc. -- or some distortion of the
truth. Granted, since the conclusions are usually ones that you agree
with, you are unlikely to notice this, and I wouldn't call that a
fault necessarily. But it is pretty clear to me. You could say that
the NY Times or CNN is just as bad but let's put that to a test. You
and I and anyone else you want to bring along can go to some bar or
coffee house where they have TV and watch Fox news for an hour. I'll
list all the fallacies and distortions of the truth that I hear during
that time period. Then we'll watch CNN for an hour and you can list
each fallacy and distortion of truth that you hear. We'll see who
wins! I don't hate Fox because it is right-wing. I hate it because it
is divisive and misleading. If I'm wrong, you have a chance to prove
it, either by taking me up on my challenge or by coming up with
specific examples from left-wing news sources that are as bad as the
ones noted from Fox. I'm just asking you to support your claims and
until you do, I'm unlikely to think that Fox is anything other than
trash TV. If you need it to support your views, they are in trouble.

Joe Campbell

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:18 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
> Joe
> Some of what you say here is ok. Part of the problem is you seem to equate all hate speech with the right. That is just not so. There are some that engage in hate speak that are on the right. Most conservatives condemn all hate speech. There are also plenty that are on the left. Most holocaust deniers are not on the right, The guy at the holocaust Memorial had more in common with the left. He hated Bush, he thought the 9/11 attack was a conspiracy by Bush, He thought that the moslems were innocent. Please do not continue to label him a member of the right. At least say he was nether. It is find to rail against hate speech in general, no matter who they are affiliated with. You show your bias when you are incapable of seeing any fault on the left. As Gary has pointed out, practically all of the news networks except Fox are on the left. You apparently can not see this and are unhappy that they are not also on the left. In the spirit of freedom you don't have to agree with Fox, but at
> least agree that they have the right to not be like the rest of the news media. They provide a much needed balance. Or is it that you do not want any views but those on the left expressed? Please tell me that this is not so. Please also condemn those that engage in hate speech against Bush. I would agree with you to the extent that we should all work toward toning down all hate speech. That is not to make it illegal. As Paul says that is their right, but we should discourage it and speak out against it.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:12:45 -0700
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Apology, bias, and the holocaust
>
> > I received a number of off-list emails suggesting that I went too far
> > today, which I suppose is correct. For most of the time I was being
> > playful and that was careless on my part, given the serious nature of
> > the topic.
> >
> > I'm especially sorry to Dan and Paul for making it seem as if they
> > support holocaust deniers, etc. They do not. I'm sure in their views
> > on these subjects are complex, more complex than can be explained in
> > short responses to my questions.
> >
> > Note I never SAID they supported holocaust deniers, nor did I ever
> > believe it. I merely asked some questions. Nor were they loaded
> > questions. A loaded question would have been: Do you STILL support
> > holocaust deniers? Mine was just the "Do you" part, which I thought
> > would be easy enough to answer. My answer is: "No, I don't support
> > holocaust deniers (or slavery revisionists)." (Thanks to Gary Crabtree
> > for (sort of) giving this same answer!)
> >
> > Which brings me to the point I was trying to make in the beginning,
> > which is that we've become complacent in our acceptance of radical
> > right wing viewpoints. Some of this is for political advantage, e.g.,
> > conservative candidates afraid to say anything for fear of losing
> > votes. (Again, I'm sorry for implicating Dan in this since, as I said,
> > I think his views are more complex and not of this nature.) Some of
> > this is due to an incorrect view about objectivity: that being
> > objective requires you to see both sides of everything. Well, not
> > everything has two sides. The other side of "Denying the holocaust is
> > wrong" is not a defensible position, IMO. Call me arrogant but I've
> > seen the Sorrow and the Pity.
> >
> > According to Keely, I think that "everyone who disagrees with [me] on
> > this point is either a slavery defender, locked into or indebted to
> > the Wilson camp, or simply just bad." I don't even think that Crabtree
> > is a slavery defender. He has defended slavery defenders, which is bad
> > enough in my book, but I have said time and time again that I don't
> > think he is racist. And he is the only one that I think is in the
> > Wilson camp. I'm simply astonished at how unwilling even moderate
> > conservatives are when it comes to criticizing the good pastor, or
> > criticizing crazed right wing viewpoints. I have no such
> > unwillingness. In fact, I feel an obligation to be critical.
> >
> > I grew up in a town in NJ with about the population of Moscow spread
> > out over one square mile; 40% of folks are Jewish. When I was in high
> > school you could walk into almost any deli on almost any day and find
> > someone with a number tattooed on his or her arm indicating time spent
> > in a Nazi concentration camp. Many of my best friends had grandparents
> > with such tattoos, though all of them are now dead.
> >
> > I still visit about 2-3 times a year and often I get to talk with my
> > friends' parents since I still stay in touch with many of them. (Five
> > of my friends flew out last December for my 50th birthday party, for
> > instance.) When I tell my friends about Wilson et. al. and their
> > criticisms of gays and Muslims along with their slavery revisionism,
> > they remind me that this is how it started in Germany. It starts with
> > minorities, because no one but them will complain, and then it builds
> > from there. There was a saying I grew up with: Never forget. History
> > has a way of repeating itself and if one is not careful, if one
> > forgets, it becomes all the more possible.
> >
> > I have to look my friends' parents in their eyes when I see them 2-3
> > times a year and I could not in clear conscience do so without knowing
> > that I did my best to speak out against hate speech. I know that
> > people think that speech and beliefs are innocuous but I respectfully
> > disagree (more on this in another post).
> >
> > The fact is that there are reports from numerous sources about an
> > increase in hate crimes, especially since the last election. My
> > earlier posts on this topic mostly contained questions: Is there a
> > connection between a rise in violence and conservative tolerance for
> > divisive speech? Later I became more aggressive but at no point did I
> > BLAME conservatives for the recent murders inspired by right wing
> > extremists. Clearly the blame lies with the murderers. My point is
> > more subtle.
> >
> > We just finished an 8-year stretch in which hate politics was used to
> > get an idiot elected president for two successive terms. Just think
> > about that for a moment. He wrecked the economy, started two endless
> > wars, and made a joke of our constitutional rights -- to name just a
> > few things. But the worst of all of it was the way he won the
> > elections, since it was built on hate, pure and simple. Many key
> > states -- as well as politically irrelevant states like Idaho -- came
> > out in huge numbers to vote against gay marriage.  He stirred up
> > hatred of Muslims to support the war as well as hatred of foreigners
> > to support his draconian immigration policy. And, I think, we are
> > still suffering from the consequences of that election strategy.
> >
> > Today I saw a documentary on Information Discovery about the rise of
> > hate groups in American. And guess what? The strategy for recruitment
> > in such groups is much the same as Bush's election strategy: use hate
> > to build interest. And I think it is undeniable that these groups are
> > growing in numbers. (A friend mailed me something on this that I'll
> > post should any of you be in doubt.)
> >
> > Does this make us blameworthy, or conservatives blameworthy, for the
> > recent murders? Of course not. But that is not the issue. The issue is
> > that each of us is part of the world and what happens in that world is
> > due in some part to our actions. We can speak out against hate speech
> > or not and whether we do or not will have some influence on our
> > future. In less than 50 years, whites in the US will be a minority in
> > this country. So respect for minority viewpoints is only a matter of
> > time.
> > Either we all learn to respect each other's differences -- which
> > includes, in my book, speaking out against hate speech whenever the
> > opportunity arises -- or our children and children's children will
> > suffer the consequences. It doesn't matter if anyone blames us for it.
> > What matters is that we can do something about it now.
> >
> > Joe Campbell
> >
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