[Vision2020] Choices
Mo Hendrickson
hend5953 at vandals.uidaho.edu
Fri Jul 24 15:56:38 PDT 2009
Just for fun lets both do it! Since I never have seen your position laid out. Unless you can direct me to a prior email specifically on the topic. What I recall from you is bits and pieces here and there but nothing ever in one shebang.
Give me the weekend to work on it. I will post my response by Monday evening. I hope that you will do the same.
-Mo
From: lockshop at pull.twcbc.com
To: hend5953 at vandals.uidaho.edu
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Choices
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:26:29 -0700
Since I've done that one before Mo, why not just for fun
try a different approach. Why don't you explain to me all the myriad ways
in which you being able to marry your partner is a benefit to me and/or society?
Explain how it will be good for children (mine or yours, assuming you have any),
how it will strenghten families, and how it won't cause large problems with
regard to an already tottering social security system. Lay out how it won't set
the stage for polygamous and polyandrous unions with all the inherent problems
that will bring. Perhaps, if nothing else, explain to me what the major tangible
benefits of it would even be for you and your partner.
All the things that you claim you long for can be achieved
by other legal means. It is my understanding that most states allow pretty much
all accomadation to homosexual couples as they do hetro except the title, why so
adamant in your insistance for a change to the status quo?
g
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mo Hendrickson
To: lockshop at pull.twcbc.com
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 1:11 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Choices
One question Gary. I am hoping you can clarify this point
for me...
How would my desire to marry my partner adversely affect you?
Your marriage, I am making an assumption that you are married, has no
effect on me, so why would mine have any bearing on you? Why do you
advocate for denying me and my partner a legally recognized marriage?
Not that I expect an answer but I thought I would put it out
there. I guess anybody who is opposed to same gender marriage could
answer this question. And so we don't head down the ridiculous path of
marrying goats, I am defining same gender marriage as two consenting
adults.
-Mo
From: lockshop at pull.twcbc.com
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Fri,
24 Jul 2009 12:41:22 -0700
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with facts."
Another inconsequential argument. No valid
marriages are being rendered "null and void" and I'm not suggesting that any
be made so. I think that my views are quite consistant. I'm in favor of choice
when the choice doesn't adversely affect others who have no way of escaping my
decision.
What strikes me as strange is your notion that
your personally concocted idea of freedoms should be celebrated
and allowed to impact any and everyone with no regard for adverse
impact.
g
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Joe Campbell
To:
the lockshop
Cc:
TIM RIGSBY ; <starbliss at gmail.com> ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent:
Friday, July 24, 2009 11:43 AM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."
So you think that the state should not be forced to recognize marriage?
If they were to say that conservatives with inconsistent views were not
allowed to marry, and thus your marriage was null and void, that would be
fine with you? Yipes! As I said, this is a strange kind of freedom!
And I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out the
implications of your own words.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 24, 2009, at 1:55 PM, "the lockshop"
<lockshop at pull.twcbc.com> wrote:
Is mis-stating my position really the only
way you can think of to try and make a valid point?
As I have said repeatedly, I believe that if
homosexuals can find someone who is willing to pronounce them man and man,
wife and wife, or man, wife, wife, or any permutation thereof then
swell, I wish them the best. What I am not in favor of is in my or the
state being forced to recognize it.
With regard to the abortion issue though
I've really got to admit that you've got me caught on the horns of a
delimma. How could I not see the similarity between making a choice
that has a 1 in 15 chance of potentially damaging the health of the
person doing the choosing and making a decision that
has a 100% chance of killing an innocent party?
In both of your examples the decision extends
to others who will not be given a choice to participate. Bar patrons and
employess do get to make an informed choice and as a result your comments
seem a trifle lame.
g
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Joe Campbell
To:
the lockshop
Cc:
TIM RIGSBY ; <starbliss at gmail.com> ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent:
Friday, July 24, 2009 9:29 AM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."
You don't even think that ADULTS are able to make decisions about
whom to marry or whether pr not to have children, so stop pretending to
respect a person's right to make decisions for him or
herself!
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:11 PM, "the lockshop"
<lockshop at pull.twcbc.com> wrote:
It would seem that you, Mr. Moffet, and our city
council have a mighty low opinion of the intelligence of the patrons
and employees of bars and taverns. I can't speak for your students
but, I find it very difficult to believe that by the time a citizen
reaches the age of 21 in the United States he hasn't heard
the anti-smoking mantra to the point of nausea.
How lucky we are that there are people out there
who will take it upon themselves to prevent emancipated Americans from
making their own decisions with regard to the risks they take in
life.
g
-----
Original Message -----
From:
TIM RIGSBY
To:
starbliss at gmail.com ;
vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent:
Friday, July 24, 2009 7:47 AM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."
I would like to add the idea of this
saying,
"Don't let the facts get in the way of a good
story."
Either way Ted, you brought up some very valid points
that tend to be forgotten when people discuss tobacco/smoking
regulation and legislation. What scares me as a Health Teacher
is when I hear my junior high and high school aged students talking
about how safe, they think anyway, Hookah bars are. When asked
if they would ever smoke cigarettes, they claim that they
won't. Yet what these students don't realize is that they are
actually smoking tobacco at the high school hookah parties.
What is even scarier is a lot of the parents think that hookah is a
safe alternative as well.
The hookah bar closest to my
house in Boise is constantly packed with young people all of the
time. Often times, other substances are being laced into the
tobacco as well and these young people are unknowingly smoking
illegal drugs along with their fruit and tobacco mixture.
I
predict in the not so distant future, Boise and possibly the State
Legislature will enact legislation to regulate/control these hookah
establishments.
Here is a question to ponder. By
definition based on Idaho Code, what is a hookah bar categorized
as? A restaurant, a bar, a private club? If it falls
under the bar definition, then people under 21 should not be allowed
in. It seems as though hookah bars would fall into an
undefined gray area of the Idaho Clean Indoor Air Act.
However, Moscow seems to have covered hookah bars in their recent
ban of smoking, I could be wrong though.
" 'Politics is the
art of controlling your environment.' That is one of the key things
I learned in these years, and I learned it the hard way. Anybody who
thinks that 'it doesn't matter who's President' has never been
Drafted and sent off to fight and die in a vicious, stupid War on
the other side of the World -- or been beaten and gassed by Police
for trespassing on public property -- or been hounded by the IRS for
purely political reasons -- or locked up in the Cook County Jail
with a broken nose and no phone access and twelve perverts wanting
to stomp your ass in the shower. That is when it matters who is
President or Governor or Police Chief. That is when you will wish
you had voted." - Hunter S. Thompson
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:39:45 -0700
From:
starbliss at gmail.com
To:
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020]
"Please do not continue to confuse people with facts."
The "Off List" response referenced, from someone I regard as
one of the most educated and honest Vision2020 participants,
that I received to my post below on tobacco regulation, is in
total what is stated in the subject heading of this post. Wise
words, no doubt, that I ignore at my own risk...
Notice there is limited or no discussion of some of the
critical facts my post presented: that tobacco
(nicotine) is a physically addictive drug, with
underage tobacco addiction common, raising questions if whether
adult "choice" is in effect regarding employees or consumers in
tobacco related decisions; that tobacco is the leading cause of
premature death (nuclear waste or energy or even nuclear weapons
production is not even close as a cause of premature death); that
other drugs doing less harm to society than tobacco are criminalized
and prosecuted aggressively, involving civil and human rights
violations, yet who among those opposing regulation of
tobacco, will as aggressively advocate for these drugs to
be managed by free choice and the marketplace, rather than a
government "Big Brother?" Some, perhaps... While there are
others who should know better playing some on this list as
fools, for the sake of debate, or political advantage, or popular
image or whatever... Or they are as deluded as those they are
debating with...
My response to the "Off List" comment discussed
here:
Ummm... OK, I guess... However, being an idealist in belief
that expressing the truth is morally mandated (where did I get that
dangerous idea? I''ll end up in serious trouble! Oh, I
forgot, I already am...), I may not comply. I recently read a
variation of this same expression in James Lovelock's "Revenge
of Gaia:" "Don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up."
Lovelock was referring to this mentality regarding the rejection of
nuclear power by many in the environmental movement.
Ted
Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts.
-----
Original Message -----
From:
Ted Moffett
To:
Moscow Vision 2020
Sent:
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:55 AM
Subject:
[Vision2020] Tobacco: Targeting the Nation’s Leading Killer:
Centers for Disease Control
Tobacco (nicotine) is a physically addictive drug.
Once addicted, "choice" becomes a problematic concept. And
many people become addicted while underage, encouraged to
continue their addiction in bars, where cigarettes are
often shared between customers.
The fact tobacco is physically addictive is absent from the
comments of many opposing the smoking ordinance, as are the
facts regarding the magnitude of the
damage. Comparisons to other harmful behaviors
are drawn (fatty food, etc.), suggesting that a slippery slope
of regulation will lead to government control over too many
aspects of life, but many of these behaviors do not involve
a drug addiction. Of course alcohol has dramatic negative
impacts. But workers in bars are not forced to drink the
drinks the customers order, as they breathe the smoke
of the customers.
I find it incredible that the health of workers exposed to
an addictive drug when they breathe in the workplace is
approached so callously. They can work elsewhere, it's
announced with smug authority, as if in this economy workers
have the luxury of choosing whatever job suits their fancy,
rather than an urgency to take whatever work they can
find. If it was cocaine or heroin or methamphetamine that
workers were exposed to, the attitude might be different.
Profits from exposing workers to addictive drugs in the
workplace should be protected based on free market, free choice,
adult responsibility? If this is the logic, where are the
protests against laws imposed on those selling
cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine, et. al., to consenting
adults, which can result in long prison sentences? Let the
free market decide! Why stand in the way of
profits and the free choice of adults?
If those opposing the smoking ordinance were consistent in
their outrage against limits on the free market, their ideology
might have more intellectual credibility. Instead, the
libertarianism proposed is inconsistent and conformist. Or
perhaps those opposed to the smoking ordinance will now protest
that bars do not allow legal cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine
use? Think of the profits to be made! And remember,
tobacco prematurely kills more people than those three drugs
combined...
If attempts were made to criminalize tobacco like cannabis
is, resulting in prison sentences, home invasions, for sale or
use, I would oppose this vehemently. But an ordinance
regulating smoking in bars does not stop any adult from legally
using tobacco products in settings where they do not expose
workers.
If worker freedom of choice was a valid argument to justify
the exposure of workers to tobacco smoke in bars, than OSHA
could be mostly eliminated. After all, if workers exposed
to hazards monitored or banned by OSHA don't want to work with
those risks, they can work elsewhere, as long as signs posted in
the workplace inform them of the risks. A "Big
Brother" government bureaucracy gone.
--------------------------
http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm
The Burden of Tobacco UseTobacco use is the single most
preventable cause of disease, disability, and death in the
United States. Each year, an estimated 443,000 people die
prematurely from smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke, and
another 8.6 million have a serious illness caused by smoking.
For every person who dies from smoking, 20 more people suffer
from at least one serious tobacco-related illness. Despite these
risks, approximately 43.4 million U.S. adults smoke cigarettes.
Smokeless tobacco, cigars, and pipes also have deadly
consequences, including lung, larynx, esophageal, and oral
cancers.
The harmful effects of smoking do not end with the
smoker. More than 126 million nonsmoking Americans, including
children and adults, are regularly exposed to secondhand smoke.
Even brief exposure can be dangerous because nonsmokers inhale
many of the same carcinogens and toxins in cigarette smoke as
smokers. Secondhand smoke exposure causes serious disease and
death, including heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmoking
adults and sudden infant death syndrome, acute respiratory
infections, ear problems, and more frequent and severe asthma
attacks in children. Each year, primarily because of exposure to
secondhand smoke, an estimated 3,000 nonsmoking Americans die of
lung cancer, more than 46,000 (range: 22,700–69,600) die of
heart disease, and about 150,000–300,000 children younger than
18 months have lower respiratory tract infections.
Coupled
with this enormous health toll is the significant economic
burden of tobacco use—more than $96 billion per year in medical
expenditures and another $97 billion per year resulting from
lost productivity.
[A text description of
this graph is also available.]
The Tobacco Use Epidemic Can Be StoppedA 2007 Institute
of Medicine (IOM) report presented a blueprint for action to
“reduce smoking so substantially that it is no longer a public
health problem for our nation.” The two-pronged strategy for
achieving this goal includes not only strengthening and fully
implementing currently proven tobacco control measures, but also
changing the regulatory landscape to permit policy innovations.
Foremost among the IOM recommendations is that each state should
fund a comprehensive tobacco control program at the level
recommended by CDC in Best Practices for Comprehensive
Tobacco Control Programs–2007.
Evidence-based, statewide
tobacco control programs that are comprehensive, sustained, and
accountable have been shown to reduce smoking rates,
tobacco-related deaths, and diseases caused by smoking. A
comprehensive program is a coordinated effort to establish
smoke-free policies and social norms, to promote and assist
tobacco users to quit, and to prevent initiation of tobacco use.
This approach combines educational, clinical, regulatory,
economic, and social strategies.
Research has documented the
effectiveness of laws and policies to protect the public from
secondhand smoke exposure, promote cessation, and prevent
initiation when they are applied in a comprehensive way. For
example, states can increase the unit price of tobacco products;
implement smoking bans through policies, regulations, and laws;
provide insurance coverage of tobacco use treatment; and limit
minors’ access to tobacco products.
If the nation is to
achieve the objectives outlined in Healthy People 2010,
comprehensive, evidence-based approaches for preventing smoking
initiation and increasing cessation need to be fully
implemented.
CDC's ResponseCDC is the lead federal agency for
tobacco control. CDC’s Office on Smoking and Health (OSH)
provides national leadership for a comprehensive, broad-based
approach to reducing tobacco use. A variety of government
agencies, professional and voluntary organizations, and academic
institutions have joined together to advance this approach,
which involves the following activities:
Preventing young people from starting to smoke.
Eliminating exposure to secondhand smoke.
Promoting quitting among young people and
adults.
Identifying and eliminating tobacco-related health
disparities. Essential elements of this approach
include state-based, community-based, and health system-based
interventions; cessation services; counter marketing; policy
development and implementation; surveillance; and evaluation.
These activities target groups who are at highest risk for
tobacco-related health
problems.
-------------------------------------------
Vision2020
Post: Ted
Moffett
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