[Vision2020] disagreement is not racism
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Thu Jan 29 18:23:39 PST 2009
I'll write Rush's comments and No Weatherman's subject lines on a piece of paper and we'll put you on a street corner in Newark and you explain to people who pass by that the comments aren't racist. If you convince them, I'll rest my case."
So, because your point of view would be more popular in The Murder Capital of New Jersey, I must be wrong? Coming from someone who lauds himself as a master of logic, that's a rather awkward argument don't you think? (anybody out there want to tell the rest of the class which logical fallacy Perfessor Campbell has been repeatedly making in the last few posts using this line of reasoning? Bueller?)
"I'll be happy to take the same sheet of paper and ask the folks coming and going into your shop on any given day what they think. What better audience could you have?"
Despite your blatantly transparent intent to bully by attempting to falsely identify me with racist attitudes, this is the course of action I choose for two reasons. First, I believe that my clients are much smarter then you (heck, I think lawn furniture is smarter than you) and will see your actions for what they are, another spineless and ultimately ineffective attempt to inflict a little character assignation on someone you have repeatedly and publicly expressed your hatred for. Second, you have made repeated threats to come to my shop and do this thing or that thing but in the end you've never had the fortitude to follow through. It seems very unlikely to me that you're going to man up at this late date.
As a dry run for this imaginary undertaking that you propose, why don't you post your "sheet of paper" containing these comments and subject lines, verbatim, In quotation marks, with citations along with my exact remarks in support. (you have, after all been known to make it up as you go along) I'm quite sure that without your adding your own special spin to the remarks that the whole thing is going to come across as weak and not a little pathetic.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Campbell
To: g. crabtree
Cc: Saundra Lund ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: Crabtree once again defends racism (was blah, blah, blah)
Rush resigned like Nixon resigned.
Let's it simple. I'll write Rush's comments and No Weatherman's subject lines on a piece of paper and we'll put you on a street corner in Newark and you explain to people who pass by that the comments aren't racist. If you convince them, I'll rest my case.
If you prefer, I'll be happy to take the same sheet of paper and ask the folks coming and going into your shop on any given day what they think. What better audience could you have?
Or you pick the street corner, shop, or audience (not members of your favorite church, though). However you want to do it. Put your theory to the test. What have you got to loose if you're right.
Joe Campbell
On Jan 29, 2009, at 6:23 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
"I, and most sensible people?" looks as though we're off to a great start.
It would seem that you are not very well informed with regard to the Donovan McNabb/Rush Limbaugh incident. From the ESPN web site:
George Bodenheimer, president of ESPN and ABC Sports, issued the following response: (to Limbaugh's resignation)
"We accept his resignation and regret the circumstances surrounding this. We believe that he took the appropriate action to resolve this matter expeditiously."
The comments referenced by Limbaugh came during Sunday's pregame show when the conservative talk show host offered the opinion that McNabb wasn't as good as the media perceived him to be.
"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well,'' Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."
It is an unambiguous fact that the media was rooting a little extra for McNabb and if you watched any of the reporting and commentary at the time you couldn't miss it. It is hardly racist to acknowledge this reality. Jump ahead five years and substitute BHO for DM. It isn't racist to point out the obvious.
In the first two games of the 2003 season McNabb's performance was sub par. To offer up the opinion that he was currently over rated was just that, an opinion on his performance, not his color. McNabb went on to have a pretty good year so consequentially Limbaugh's comments may have been premature, or poorly informed, or flat out wrong but they were opinions on a quarterback and not racism.
Let's review. Rush did not say that McNabb "was not subject to criticism because he was black." Rush was not "FIRED" (note to jc: all caps and repetition do not constitute truth) from ESPN. That being cleared up, it really isn't at all hard to characterize your misinterpretation of the incident as liberal bias.
For the record, I do not think that it's racist to disagree with people of color. I don't think that it's racist to not get all tingly in my lower extremities when a person of color gets elected to high office and I most assuredly don't think it's racist to offer up the same criticism to a person of color that I would to any other public figure where it's warranted. In fact, I do think that it's more then a little condescending and, quite frankly, racist not to.
Now, All that having been said, I don't think YOU'RE a belligerent, racist, liar but, you sure do sound like one. Oh, and by the way, you have on several previous occasions called me a bigot when the subject was race, making the first two sentences along with the general theme of your post prevarications.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Campbell
To: g. crabtree
Cc: Saundra Lund ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Crabtree once again defends racism (was blah, blah, blah)
I'm not trying to pick a fight. Nor did I call you a racist. I just find it curious that you keep putting your stamp of approval next to comments that I and most sensible people consider to be racist. First there was your defense of No Weatherman and then your recent defense of comments by Rush.
The recent Rush comments, by the way, were similar to comments he made about Donovan McNabb - that DM was not subject to criticism because he was black. Those comments, if you remember, got Rush FIRED from espn. You don't have a problem with the comments but enough people did that he was FIRED.
It is hard to pass off my disgust for Rush's recent comments as some kind of liberal bias in light of this history, these facts. And it is equally hard to make sense of your support for Rush's comments in light of this history, these facts.
Lastly, I like how you brush off my suggestion that you characterize all liberals as holding the same stupid view but you do it again below! I never said anything negative about Soul, or Williams, or Steele. I never said anything about any of them. I don't even know who some of them are!
But somewhere, somewhen, some stupid liberal made some stupid comment about one of them and the rest of us have to pay - because we're all the same.
And somehow this all explains why a comment made by Rush, which would have gotten him fired were he still on espn, isn't as racist as common sense suggests.
Look, maybe you're not a racist, Gary. But you sure sound like one.
Joe Campbell
On Jan 28, 2009, at 7:43 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
First line, irrelevant babble, no response required.
Second, same as first. Yawn.
Third. Like calling someone a nazi when your argument is floundering, hurl out the "racist" appellation when you're desperate to make some sort of a point and nothing else is sticking. If you would like to continue down this woeful road, why not explain for me and the rest of the readership what, exactly, is racist about not being impressed (or distressed) by our new leaders fathers skin color? How does it make BHO's policy's divinely inspired while the ideas put forth by Thomas Soul, Walter Williams, and Michael Steele something to be disregarded as irrelevant and beneath contempt? And finally, what the hell do your pals pockets have to do with anything? Are they packed full of moon beams and fairy dust?
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Campbell
To: Saundra Lund
Cc: g. crabtree ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contradictory Crabtree (was RE: Say What?)
Sandra, no sense in letting the facts get in the way of the radical right rhetoric. Those who disagree are all communists, God-haters.
On the other hand, we're all a team, accepting all of the same views. How else could the Bush ideology win, unless it was black (liberalism, communism, atheism) against white (truth, justice, and the American way)?
And Tom's original post about Rush's racist comments - which Crabtree supported without a blink, just like he supported the racist rants of No Weatherman - is smoothly swept under the rug. What's a little racism when what is at stake is God Himself? Or the pockets of my friends?
Joe Campbell
On Jan 27, 2009, at 4:33 PM, "Saundra Lund" <sslund_2007 at verizon.net> wrote:
Yet again, what an enormous crock, but that’s what many of us have come to expect from you in this forum J
And, how wrong you are, as usual. As everyone who knows me knows, Obama wasn’t “my” candidate, let alone any kind of deity to me. I did, however, vote for the candidate out of the choices we wound up with who I thought would do the best job, a decision a clear majority agreed with. So take your sour grapes and go make some more whine – continue to be part of the problem rather than part of a solution . . . that’s what you’re good at.
It’s not surprising at all to me – nor should it be to any of us here -- that you don’t bother to even try to correct what you say I got wrong in summarizing the positions you’ve taken here. It would be pretty difficult for you, what with the V2020 archives being open for all J
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****
From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:42 AM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contradictory Crabtree (was RE: Say What?)
Ms. Lund,
I'm not sure exactly how pointing out that I will support your new god when (if) I see him doing good for the country and oppose him when he's not qualifies as whining but, I guess it's in the ear of the termagant. I defer to your mastery as eight continuous years of effort have, without a doubt, left you well practiced on the matter.
I find it highly amusing and not a small bit refreshing that you feel comfortable enough in your creative writing style to forge ahead without feeling even the slightest need to anchor yourself to anything resembling a fact. The errors in your brief communication are many, and I'm just sure that you'll forgive me if (what with life being short and all) I don't bother to enumerate them. Lets face it, as one of The Chosen Ones most fervent followers it's clear that you have gotten beyond the need for accuracy and reason where it comes to your cute little school girl affaire d'coeur with your freshly minted deity. My only request would be that if you are going to do the other members of this little electronic community the service of pointing out that evil "Crabtree's" position on any given topic that you provide a cite so that the others can make a reasonable distinction between my actual stand on any given matter and what is a fantasy fueled by your freshly found religious fervor.
My most heart felt thanks in advance,
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Saundra Lund
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:31 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Contradictory Crabtree (was RE: Say What?)
LOL – let the whining begin!
Gary Crabtree wrote:
“As I said previously, if there is an issue that "our" president should come up with that I think makes America a better, safer, or less restrictive place to live, I'll support him.”
Note the quotation marks Crabtree uses – he’s clearly wanting to continue with the divisiveness that doomed the election for the GOP.
Of course, he contradicts himself here:
“If BHO plans on making good on his campaign promises with regard to abortion, education, taxes, health care, the second amendment, the global warming hoax, and the war on terror, then I suspect a huge portion of the 53 million American's who didn't vote for him (once) hope he fails miserably, myself included.”
So, Crabtree only wants a less restrictive place to live if it suits his notion of a “less restrictive place to live” – he’s against reproductive rights, even for rape victims. Let’s keep them thar women broodmares! Remember, he’s a staunch supporter of misogynistic “conscience laws” that enable pharmacists to refuse to dispense contraceptives, emergency or otherwise, which would certainly make America a much more restrictive place for women to live. The broken health care system folks like Crabtree want to cling to has made America a much more restrictive place to live for many regular hardworking Americans – he’s seemingly proud of the fact that we are the only industrialized nation where people lose their homes due to unconscionable health care costs. The Second Amendment our founding fathers gave us isn’t good enough for Crabtree and his ilk – they want a Second Amendment on Steroids. He’s content that the War on Terror has lead to the terrorization of US citizens through the erosion of our guaranteed civil liberties and put us on a path to a police state – that sure seems like a much more restrictive place to live to me, and that’s without even getting into the shame of torture and denial of due process to suspects. He’s pleased with a tax system that unfairly burdens the least among us while providing nothing but loopholes ripe for exploitation by the greedy amongst us, especially those who benefit from the special interest lobbying they fund. Education – his solution is I don’t know what, but it would likely look similar – and have results similar to – the deregulation that’s caused the financial crisis that came crashing down around Bush’s ears. God only knows what nonsense fills his head about global warming – it would appear his understanding of science is limited to the right-wing whack jobs who flunked science.
Fortunately, the election was a resounding rejection of those like Crabtree who want keep doing things that don’t work. And, I’m sure we have his sore loser whining to look forward to for the next four years. After all, this was a legitimate win for Obama, which must make the win that much more difficult to swallow J
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of g. crabtree
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:38 PM
To: Chasuk
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
I guess that it all depends on which side of the Kool-Aid jug you sit on. I can't believe that you can say with a straight face that what you might find on drudge or the freep is as over the top as some of the mindless, howling at the moon, wackiness found at kos or huffington.
As I said previously, if there is an issue that "our" president should come up with that I think makes America a better, safer, or less restrictive place to live, I'll support him. On everything else I'll fight him to the best of my ability and hope for his catastrophic failure. Since I am unaware of a single issue with which I am in agreement major policy wise, I don't think that there will be much to support. If every mega leftist measure your hero puts forward is an abject failure it will hopefully discredit the ultra liberal wing of the democrat party and hasten the rise of a truly conservative candidate. All to the greater glory of our republic, in my opinion.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 06:51, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>> Remember how your side wished President GW the best? Sort of like that but
>> without the shrillness and childish demonstrations.
>
> Sorry, I read a lot of blogs and new sites, across the political
> spectrum -- including http://drudgereport.com,
> http://www.freerepublic.com, and http://worldnetdaily.com -- and
> "shrill" and "childish" are words that much more accurately describe
> the conservative side of things. Other accurate words would be
> inarticulate and ungrammatical.
>
> And how about wishing that Obama simply fail to successfully implement
> those policies and agendas with which you disagree? As far as
> conservatives go, you are the voice of reason on this forum, Gary.
> You really don't strike me as subscribing to the
> cut-off-the-nose-to-spite-the-face philosophy.
>
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