[Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness

Fri Jan 16 16:20:01 PST 2009

Keely,

Three quick sets of comments.

First, I don't think that scripture is the only basis for religious
belief. Thus, I think it is fine if some Christians - Catholics, for
instance - base some of their beliefs on something other than scripture.
But you can't be serious that there is no scriptural basis for the
doctrine of transubstantiation. "And he took bread, gave thanks and
broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body given for you;
do this in remembrance of me.'" (Luke 22:19) I don't see how you could
be more direct than to say "This (bread) is my body." Obviously you have
a different interpretation than the literal one adopted by some
Catholics and I have no desire to debate with you on this issue. For one
thing, I'm sure that you could kick my Christian butt when it comes to
the Text; for another, I don't believe the doctrine in the first place,
so I have little reason to defend it. But it is simply false to say that
there is NO textual support for the doctrine of transubstantiation.

Second, the issue here is not the truth or falsity of the doctrine of
transubstantiation. I agree with you and Chas on that issue. The real
issue is how we should approach discussions about disagreements of
fundamental beliefs - religious, moral, and philosophical beliefs. I
think that we should approach them with a more respectful tone than Chas
has been taking. 

Third, I am in total agreement with you and Chas when it comes to social
issues and religious belief. The history of Christianity is filled with
atrocities. Chas has already given an "impressive" list. I wish that the
Catholic Church would take a more sympathetic view toward the issue of
abortion, that other Christian churches would re-examine their views
about women, etc. I have a lot to say about politics and religion and I
would love to see more thoughtful discussions on V2020 about these
issues. The main reason I've been so critical of Chas is that I think
that he's making genuine, helpful, thoughtful discussions less likely.
If we want to talk about these issue we need to adopt a more respectful
tone otherwise we're just preaching to the choir. No Christians - other
than you, Donovan, and I - are listening. Certainly the Catholics have
tuned him out. I don't see how you are going to begin to change a
Catholic's mind about abortion if you start the discussion by
mischaracterizing their beliefs in the way that Chas has. Who the heck
are we kidding here?

Best, Joe

From: keely emerinemix [mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:11 PM
To: Campbell, Joseph; Charles Warren; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness

Joe, you make some good points.  

Still, my calling for some perspective in the desecrated wafer (host)
vs. genocide issue springs from my belief that when truth claims are
made in religion, as they are here, they ought to be defensible.  That
includes the doctrines that inform such claims.  If, as Catholic
Christians or Protestant or Orthodox Christians, we believe that the
Bible is the Word of God and the basis for any appeal to doctrine or
conduct, it's fair to ask for, or point out the lack of, Scriptural
basis for that belief.  I believe there is none, and my failure to find
some Roman Catholic doctrine justified by Scripture is one of the things
that led me, 25 years ago, to leave the Church.  I won't join the
"Catholics aren't Christians" chorus, ever, but I would hope the Vatican
and each person in the pews would thoughtfully analyze the doctrine of
transubstantiation from a Biblical perspective, just as I would hope
that Southern Baptists would re-examine their conclusions regarding
women's roles in church, family, and society -- or Calvinists their
belief that God actually doesn't love, doesn't want to save, intends to
create for the purpose of damnation, some people for no reason at all,
other than His "good pleasure."  

A better example:  I'm quite sure that some Christians in Moscow would
like me to re-examine a whole lot of things that I believe, and I hope I
would always be open to correction.

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

________________________________

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:58:43 -0800
From: josephc at wsu.edu
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; chasuk at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Dear Keely,

Desecration of Communion is desecration of God, according to these
Catholics. Again, I don't believe this and you don't but the question is
whether it is inappropriate for someone to think that desecration of God
is the worst kind of sin. I don't think it is in appropriate. There is
really nothing new here, nothing different from Chas's first set of
remarks. He finds the thought of genuine Communion to be absurd. Well,
good for him. He is not alone. Donovan finds Chas's atheism to be
absurd, too, and I don't appreciate Donovan's insulting remarks about
Chas's beliefs any more than I do Chas's insulting remarks about
Catholics. I'm neither a Catholic or an atheist but I have friends and
family in both camps and it bothers me that their beliefs are discussed
in such a flippant, insulting way.

I find the whole idea of taking bits and pieces of someone's fundamental
beliefs out of context and making fun of them to be a worthless
exercise. It is offensive and as far as I can tell of no good
whatsoever. Why stop with Catholics? Why not find comments from other
religions - Mormons, Muslims, Jews - that we can take out of context and
make fun of? And what do we gain from this exercise? I just don't get
it.

Any fundamental claim about the world - religious, philosophical, or
whatever - looks odd to those who don't accept. That is just the way
that fundamental claims work. Going to the trouble to point out the
oddness serves no useful end, as far as I can see. Ultimately it leaves
us all open to the same kind of pointless ridicule.

Best, Joe

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of keely emerinemix
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 12:12 PM
To: Charles Warren; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness

I think I'm with Chas on this one.  A little perspective, please!

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:38:42 -0800
> From: chasuk at gmail.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28663430/
> 
> This just in:
> 
> "Confessions of . . . sins . . . such as genocide or mass murder . . .
> [are] handled at the local level by priests and their bishops"
> 
> However for the REALLY heinous sins, only the pope can grant
absolution.
> 
> Which sins are this grave, you wonder?
> 
> Well, for example, only the pope can absolve those "who receive
> Communion and then remove the host from their mouths and spit it out
> or otherwise desecrate it," this article reports.
> 
> So spitting out a wafer is worse than genocide?
> 
> *Chas's head explodes*
> 
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