[Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness

[Campbell, Joseph]

Chas,

I don't think that you should do things on the basis of whether or not
it would bother you were someone to do it to you. It wouldn't bother me,
for instance, if all women walked around naked. But that doesn't give me
a right to walk around naked in front of women. I think you should do
things on the basis of whether or not it would bother other people in a
way that you wouldn't wish to be bothered. (This is my interpretation of
the Golden Rule.) Ask a Catholic whether or not she finds your posts on
these topics insulting and I bet her answer would be "Yes." Likewise, I
wish Donovan wouldn't make over generalized insulting comments about
atheists not because I think it bothers you (since it doesn't) or
because it bothers me (since it doesn't) but because I think it bothers
some and it is just plain nasty. Note though that Donovan's comments
came after yours: one insulting comment deserves another, it seems. I'm
just trying to put an end to the pointless nastiness. 

You suggest that you are making general points of criticism, not
insulting or ridiculing any one group in particular, but it doesn't come
off that way to me at all. First, all of your recent posts along these
lines are directed toward one group only: Catholics. Second, they
concern one issue only: Communion. Third, you don't seem to want to
engage in a thoughtful discussion about this issue. For instance, you
made some claims previously which I rebutted in an exchange with Wayne
and you seem to have ignored my comments completely. 

In your last post you fail to make the connection between Communion and
God and the belief that desecration of the one is desecration of the
other, given the view under consideration. With this in mind, a more
thoughtful way of presenting the issue would be, not by comparing
"spitting out a wafer" with genocide, but by comparing the desecration
of God with genocide. I don't blame you for thinking that the latter is
worse. That is certainly a reasonable view. But I don't think it is
unreasonable for one to think that the desecration of God is the worst
of all sins. Again, I'm not saying that I share that view but I don't
think it is absurd, as you suggest it is, and I certainly wouldn't
subject it to ridicule in an open forum. That you characterized the view
in the way you did suggests insulting ridicule, not thoughtful
criticism.

We all know that you think the Catholic view of Communion is nonsense.
You've made the point. It is not surprising to find out that you think
that the logical consequences of holding such a view are equally
nonsensical. Must we be subjected to a discussion about each particular
consequence? If there is some general point that you're trying to get at
-- other than your hatred of Catholicism -- then just get to it.

Best, Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Chasuk [mailto:chasuk at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:35 PM
To: Campbell, Joseph
Cc: keely emerinemix; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:58, Campbell, Joseph <josephc at wsu.edu> wrote:

> I'm neither a Catholic or an atheist but I have friends and family in
both camps and it bothers me that their beliefs are discussed in such a
flippant, insulting way.

To you feel this way about beliefs in general, or just beliefs that
are "religious?"  I don't hold any beliefs to be sacrosanct, including
my own. Mock or criticize any of my beliefs.  Maybe I'll learn
something from the experience.

> I find the whole idea of taking bits and pieces of someone's
fundamental
> beliefs out of context and making fun of them to be a worthless
exercise.

I agree with you, except that isn't what occurred here.

> Why stop with Catholics? Why not find comments from other religions -
Mormons, Muslims, Jews - that we can take out of context and make fun
of? And what do we gain from this exercise? I just don't get it.

Agreed.  I would never stop with Catholics.  But always in context.

> Ultimately it leaves us all open to the same kind of pointless
ridicule.

We are all already open to ridicule, so this doesn't leave us anything
new.  What is one person's ridicule is apparently another person's
pointed criticism.

Chas