[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

Thu Feb 26 20:53:19 PST 2009

Sunil,

I don't think it really matters what Iraqis want if it is against US or world interests, why should we do what they want?

I don't think Iraq is better off left to their own devices. Do you? They create too many wars, gas innocent people, try to take over neighboring countries, slaughter ethnic minorities, steal oil, abuse and exploit their woman, publicly execute gays and other sexual minorities, and it launches missiles at Israel. 

I would say those were all good reasons to keep an eye on them and curb their behaviors.

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
To: 
Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 11:12 AM

#yiv543777488 .hmmessage P
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What if Iraqis don't want our 'help' any more?  What if they don't want us there at all?

Do we keep helping ourselves?

Sunil

From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: garrettmc at verizon.net; chasuk at gmail.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:22:16 -0800
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

Complete extermination of the enemy WOULD be my 
first choice but I do realize the difficulty that entails.

My alternate, more realistic, solution, such as it 
is, would be for us to be vigilant, root out leaders, bases, and training 
areas as best we can and destroy them. Identify funding sources and 
communication pathways and choke them off. Help Iraq become a 21st century 
republic. Try and help Afghanistan into becoming at least a peaceful 19th 
century functioning oligarchy. Do our best to encourage more peaceful/less 
radical Muslim nations to do more to help and pray God for improvement over 
time. I really don't foresee the problem going away entirely but I do believe 
that we can make the job description of radical islamic terrorist more dangerous 
and unappealing than other more productive pursuits.

Now, how about you? Let's hear a few specifics of 
your plan that aren't your generic Rodney King plaintive plea for peace. Should 
we apologize for putting the world trade towers, the USS Cole, and misc. 
embassies in the path of terrorist attack and offer to pay billions in 
reparations/ransom? (I doubt it would help, who do we pay off ?) Should we 
abandon Israel? (I doubt it would make any difference, Israelis have a silly 
notion that they have a right to live) Abandon our interests in the region? (I 
doubt it would help as without western help most of these nations economies 
would grind to a halt) Not allow US culture to seep into the region? (I doubt it 
would help, the genii is already out of that bottle)

Now, lets hear your specific solution.

g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>; "g. crabtree" 
<jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:52 
AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations 
work

> What's your answer, g, to how we are going to win this war? Is it 
complete extermination of the enemy? Do you really foresee this ending? Or is 
the final solution when all of us are dead, ala mutual assured 
destruction?
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, g. crabtree 
<jampot at roadrunner.com> 
wrote:
> 
>> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> To: "Chasuk" 
<chasuk at gmail.com>, garrettmc at verizon.net
>> Cc: 
"vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> 
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 7:44 AM
>> "So, instead of 
continuing to manufacture martyrs and
>> terrorists, I
>> 
suggest that we master the techniques of apology and
>> 
submission,
>> otherwise known as compromise, dialogue, and honest, 
mutual
>> sacrifice."
>> 
>> While I am extremely 
sceptical that martyrs and terrorists
>> are, in any meaningful way, 
manufactured by us except for in
>> as much as we exist, why don't you 
run down the
>> solutions for me.
>> 
>> Apology is 
easy. Obama has proven that he can tell any bald
>> faced lie and sell 
it like a Fuller brush man. An insincere
>> I'm sorry should be no 
trouble at all.
>> 
>> Submission is where it becomes a little 
more interesting.
>> What compromise should we be willing to make? How 
about no
>> US presence in the middle east? Abandon our 
legitimate
>> interests to our great detriment and bolt. How 
about
>> allowing sharia to become the law of the land? Perhaps 
get
>> our women back under control and under the veil? I'm
>> 
thinking there could be a few problems with these
>> 
"compromises."
>> 
>> Dialogue. Now that should be easy but, 
with who? Osama
>> perhaps? How about Maulana Masood Azhar, 
Mahmoud
>> Ahmadinejad, Omar Abdel-Rahman, or Dr. Walid Ahmad 
Fitaihi.
>> Which one of these nut jobs has the required suck to 
make
>> any dialog meaningful?
>> 
>> And lastly the 
"honest mutual sacrifice." Would
>> that be something like we throw 
Israel to the jackals and in
>> return they stop cutting the heads off 
of innocent business
>> men and journalists? How about we stop allowing 
our culture
>> to spread to the rest of the world and they quit 
using
>> retarded children, women, and cripples to blow up ice 
cream
>> parlors?
>> 
>> So, what were you thinking 
would be the appropriate
>> compromises and sacrifices we should make 
to put an end to
>> radical islamic extortion?
>> 
>> 
g
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: 
"Chasuk"
>> <chasuk at gmail.com>
>> To: <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> 
Cc: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>;
>> "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 
Humane interrogations work
>> 
>> 
>> > On Mon, 
Feb 23, 2009 at 23:35, Garrett Clevenger
>> <garrettmc at verizon.net> 
wrote:
>> > 
>> >> [Gary] end(s) writing, "I, 
Personally, refuse
>> to apologize and I'm not to wild about 
submission,
>> conversion is out of the question, and when it comes 
to
>> death I figure better them then me. Call me crazy."
>> 
> 
>> >> That's not crazy, as we all feel it.
>> 
That's what's driving the whole insanity, though,
>> and all the bombs 
and blood spilt's not going to change
>> it. Which leads me to conclude 
we're creating our own
>> hell, which is quite ironic.
>> > 

>> > I have agreed with most of what you have written,
>> 
Garrett, but I
>> > disagree here.  I, for one, don't 
"feel
>> it."
>> > 
>> > I sometimes apologize 
even when it isn't entirely
>> heartfelt.  Usually,
>> 
> my apology is reciprocated, and we both end up feeling
>> better, 
and
>> > more amenable to compromise and dialogue.  
Obviously,
>> apology is not
>> > always a solution, but 
there is nothing intrinsically
>> evil or cowardly
>> > 
about it.
>> > 
>> > Submission is something that we all 
do every day of
>> our lives, whether
>> > we are children 
or adults.  We do if we want our
>> relationships to 
be
>> > successful, that is.  Husbands submit to their 
wives,
>> and wives to
>> > their husbands.  It isn't 
a sign of weakness, it
>> is acknowledging that
>> > we 
each have a right to boundaries that must be
>> respected.  
Groveling
>> > isn't necessary.  When we submit to 
each
>> other's boundaries, we
>> > demonstrate that that 
the relationship is important
>> enough to us that
>> > we 
are willing to make sacrifices to make it work.
>> > 
>> 
> Islam has historically been very tolerant of other
>> 
faiths.  Conversion
>> > usually isn't expected or 
required.  Yes, we are
>> talking about
>> > 
extremists, but it is our annihilation that is their
>> goal, rather 
than
>> > our conversion,  which brings us to the final 
point...
>> > 
>> > Death isn't scary to a martyr, 
especially if their
>> martyrdom results
>> > in the 
simultaneous death of infidels, preferably many
>> at the 
same
>> > time.  Martyrs are like roosters in the hen 
house.  It
>> only takes one
>> > to fertilize an 
awful lot of chickens, and one martyr
>> to kill an awful
>> 
> lot of us.
>> > 
>> > Martyrs are far more 
tenacious than roosters, so
>> exterminating them
>> > all 
is unlikely, unless we make it US policy to engage
>> in holy war 
and
>> > genocide.  Personally, I'm voting against a 
US
>> jihad.
>> > 
>> > So, instead of 
continuing to manufacture martyrs and
>> terrorists, I
>> > 
suggest that we master the techniques of apology and
>> 
submission,
>> > otherwise known as compromise, dialogue, and 
honest,
>> mutual sacrifice.
>> > 
>> > 
Chas
>> >
> 
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