[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[Garrett Clevenger]

The problem with your justification for violence, m, is that your argument is probably exactly what the other side says.


--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com, jampot at roadrunner.com, garrettmc at verizon.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 12:10 AM
> Sunil,
> 
> "Do you really think that dropping bombs on cities has
> some moral superiority over 'terrorism?'  Are those
> victims any less dead?"
> 
> I don't know about Gary, but I believe that Yes, we do
> uphold a moral superiority over people who will target
> innocent people. People that have no idea what the Geneva
> convention is about. The same that feel their radical
> religion is just, towards the people of their regions(or
> not), regardless of sex or race. 
> 
> We uphold a difference with the terrorists. We TARGET
> people with guns they don't. But, there is a point that
> some of our citizens cant understand. A time in which
> violence of action becomes a priority. In which we act like
> the police force. We are not terrorists though. 
> 
> I believe we have the greatest nation in the world. One
> that has and should thrive on setting the example. Uphold
> nations divides. Regardless of past and current. A nation
> that most would thrive to make it past our borders.
> 
> m   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> To: jampot at roadrunner.com; garrettmc at verizon.net;
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:35:21 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think Garrett made the claim you attribute to
> him, and you're speculating wildly in claiming he
> believes what you write below.
> 
> Do you really think that dropping bombs on cities has some
> moral superiority over 'terrorism?'  Are those
> victims any less dead?
> 
> Sunil
> 
> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> > 
> > Take from my response anything you like. It's
> definitely not that I have no 
> > argument with your diatribe, it's just that I see
> little point in trying to 
> > have a discussion with anyone who actually believes
> that the USA is the 
> > moral equivalent of al-qaeda or the taliban. If
> that's the world you live in 
> > I feel sorry for you but I really don't believe
> there is any common ground 
> > from which to move this dialog forward. As for your
> infernal living 
> > arrangements, again my sympathies but I'm afraid I
> can accept no 
> > responsibility for where you choose to reside.
> > 
> > g
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
> crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> > 
> > 
> > > I'll take it from your snide response, g,
> that you have no argument 
> > > against my diatribe.
> > >
> > > You did prove Donovan's point, though, that
> some poeple just can't be 
> > > reasoned with, and my point, due to this, that
> perhaps we are condemned to 
> > > live in Hell.
> > >
> > > Congratulation's on helping keep the ball
> rolling...
> > >
> > > gclev
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations work
> > >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 12:25 PM
> > >> "I imagine most of these acts are
> consequences of the
> > >> American Empire willing to commit the same
> atrocities."
> > >>
> > >> I'm thinking not so much a book as a tool
> catalog.
> > >>
> > >> As the Ham-ster would say "nuff
> said."
> > >>
> > >> g
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Garrett
> > >> Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
> crabtree"
> > >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:53 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations work
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > I don't condone the violent acts you
> mention,
> > >> either, whether committed by suicide bombers,
> alleged
> > >> hijackers, or the powers that be that distort
> truth for
> > >> their own agenda. I imagine most of these
> acts are
> > >> consequences of the American Empire willing
> to commit the
> > >> same atrocities.
> > >> >
> > >> > There may be some imagined slights, but
> there are also
> > >> some very real slights. History is replete
> with examples of
> > >> US policy directly responsible for killing
> innocents. If
> > >> you're willing to retaliate for feeling
> slighted, why
> > >> wouldn't your supposed enemies,
> who've probably
> > >> witnessed more bloodshed than hopefully
> we'll ever see,
> > >> want vengeance, too?
> > >> >
> > >> > You're probably aware of the US
> financial and
> > >> military support of Saddam Hussein during the
> 80's. The
> > >> US backed Iraq in their war against Iran,
> where a million or
> > >> so people were killed. The US also knew
> Saddam was gassing
> > >> the Kurds, where, guess what, innocent women,
> children and
> > >> men died of chemical weapons. But apparently,
> the US
> > >> condoned Saddam's actions.
> > >> >
> > >> > The Iranians suffered under the Shaw, a
> dictator
> > >> propped up by the US. The Saudis, too, suffer
> under the
> > >> Sauds, who the US is willing to support to
> insure access to
> > >> oil, and military bases.
> > >> >
> > >> > As for Osama, the CIA trained and paid
> him and his
> > >> muhjadeen during the Afghan war against the
> Soviets. So the
> > >> US is implicated in the deaths they caused
> during that war,
> > >> as well.
> > >> >
> > >> > Those are only a few of the reasons some
> people hate
> > >> the US and are trying to bring it down, to
> hold its citizens
> > >> accountable, to make us pay with similar
> heartache. It was
> > >> only a matter of time before all that pent up
> anger would
> > >> make its way to the US, unfortunately.
> > >> >
> > >> > It seems unfair of you to be upset over
> the deaths of
> > >> Americans, but not of other people who died
> as a result of
> > >> US policy. Personally, I think all of these
> deaths are a
> > >> travesty.
> > >> >
> > >> > Nothing exist inside a vacuum. Every
> bomb has a boom.
> > >> Every person who is tortured brings us closer
> to our doom.
> > >> >
> > >> > All our values will not save us. All our
> wealth is
> > >> valueless when we become like our enemy and
> sell our souls
> > >> to oppress.
> > >> >
> > >> > We live in a freer society than where
> the alleged
> > >> terrorist dwell. We have access to more info,
> and the
> > >> ability to dissent. These other folk have
> seen, and are
> > >> taught, how US policy is hypocritical and
> leads to their
> > >> becoming second class citizens. If I lived
> there and lost a
> > >> loved one due to the US, I'd be pretty
> pissed, too. I
> > >> can empathize with their frustration at what
> seems to be
> > >> policy designed to enrich some in the US at
> the expense of
> > >> their well-being. I'm actually surprised
> their isn't
> > >> more retaliation, but maybe that's due to
> there being
> > >> more saner heads than we know, or maybe due
> to increased
> > >> security.
> > >> >
> > >> > These people's view of history,
> whether accurate
> > >> or not, becomes part of their psyche. I can
> imagine how that
> > >> shapes their behavior and view of the US.
> Since they live in
> > >> a more repressive regime, it's a lot
> harder for them to
> > >> break the cycle of hatred they have towards
> us. Since they
> > >> aren't as comfortable, it's probably
> a lot harder
> > >> for them to keep their cool. Those that are
> more tolerant
> > >> are probably ostracized. The ones who
> retaliate against us
> > >> are revered. Thus, natural selection leads to
> violence
> > >> against the US, and themselves.
> > >> >
> > >> > I imagine there are people over there
> like you who
> > >> rally others to act violent. They probably
> say the same
> > >> thing you do, and so people are enlisted into
> what means
> > >> they have of retaliation. If China were
> taking over our
> > >> country with military might instead of
> financially, perhaps
> > >> we'd have more freedom fighters willing
> to kill and die
> > >> to protect our homeland, and we'd have a
> better
> > >> understanding of why some are willing to make
> the ultimate
> > >> sacrifice in what they deem to be defense of
> their country.
> > >> >
> > >> > It's only natural to want to protect
> what you
> > >> love. It's natural to want to retaliate.
> > >> > It makes perfect sense to me that
> violence begets
> > >> violence. We send our soldiers there, who
> bomb and kill
> > >> innocent people, which then leads to pissed
> off people who
> > >> want to bomb us back. But that doesn't it
> make it right,
> > >> or in our best interest. It just makes it
> look like
> > >> we're barbarians.
> > >> >
> > >> > The war of terror the US is engaged in
> only seems to
> > >> promote further violence, which means the war
> of terror
> > >> needs more money and troops to fight that
> violence. It's
> > >> absurd to think we can keep killing,
> torturing and bombing
> > >> our way out of this mess, especially
> considering there is
> > >> historical justification for people to be mad
> at us for us
> > >> letting our government commit violence.
> > >> >
> > >> > By letting them use our tax dollars,
> like it or not,
> > >> we are guilty of killing people, and thus,
> there really are
> > >> no innocent people, unless you are protesting
> and not paying
> > >> taxes. Since we are freer, we're actually
> more guilty
> > >> than those in more repressive regimes who
> have no means of
> > >> deposing of their government. We do not have
> to be pawns in
> > >> the US empire. We do not have to let them
> engage our
> > >> military in foreign excursions that quite
> obviously are
> > >> mostly intended to secure oil reserves.
> > >> >
> > >> > We've spent hundreds of billions of
> dollars, lost
> > >> more Americans than who died during the 911
> strikes, and
> > >> killed many, many tens of thousands of
> innocent people in
> > >> our desire for vengeance. For what? More
> hatred towards us,
> > >> more loss of lives, and more indebtedness to
> fund this
> > >> folly.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm able to condemn all these acts
> of violence as
> > >> the same evil they are: willing to kill for
> > >> self-righteousness.
> > >> >
> > >> > Admittedly, at this point, there is no
> easy solution.
> > >> Considering we have a hard time treating our
> own with
> > >> respect amongst our different viewpoints,
> perhaps we're
> > >> condemned to live in this hell. We all are
> animals
> > >> essentially controlled by our emotions. Our
> higher being is
> > >> smothered by those who want to lash out. We
> all have these
> > >> feelings, but we all can be redeemed if
> we're courageous
> > >> enough to stand up to the powers that be and
> say,
> > >> "Enough!"
> > >> >
> > >> > For starters though, we need to reign in
> the American
> > >> empire. We need to hold Israel accountable
> for it's
> > >> double standards against the Palestinians. We
> need to stop
> > >> supporting repressive regimes. We need to
> have compassionate
> > >> policy that treats all Earthlings with
> respect. We need to
> > >> take the higher ground and say,
> "Sorry."
> > >> Reconciliation may sound cheesy, but it goes
> a long way in
> > >> leading to forgiveness for our trespasses.
> > >> >
> > >> > The other alternative is to keep digging
> ourselves in
> > >> this hole of hatred, which will lead to
> further acts that
> > >> we'll feel we'll need to retaliate
> against, ad
> > >> nauseam.
> > >> >
> > >> > Corrosive cynicism warmongers display
> certainly
> > >> isn't the answer.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Sorry for the book. This definitely
> became longer than
> > >> intended...
> > >> >
> > >> > Peace,
> > >> >
> > >> > gclev
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, g. crabtree
> > >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations
> > >> work
> > >> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009,
> 3:21 PM
> > >> >> "Let's assume for a moment
> that
> > >> terrorists are not
> > >> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you
> and I have
> > >> the same
> > >> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and
> desire to
> > >> retaliate."
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Retaliate for what? Sorry, but I
> can't even
> > >> begin to
> > >> >> imagine flying jumbo jets into
> buildings full of
> > >> innocents
> > >> >> or strapping on a bomb and going out
> and
> > >> deliberately
> > >> >> killing women and children most of
> whom are my own
> > >> >> countrymen.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "Why do you think these people
> would commit
> > >> such
> > >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill
> other people?
> > >> What
> > >> >> specifics would drive these people
> to act
> > >> so?"
> > >> >>
> > >> >> According to Osama Bin-Laden, the
> justification to
> > >> murder
> > >> >> nearly 3000 innocent men, women, and
> children was
> > >> that after
> > >> >> the first gulf war we were not quick
> enough in
> > >> removing all
> > >> >> of our troops from Saudi Arabia to
> suit his
> > >> tastes. Never
> > >> >> mind that the Saudi government had
> made no request
> > >> for us to
> > >> >> speed up the rate at which our
> forces were to pull
> > >> out. To
> > >> >> the contrary, they were rather
> pleased to have us
> > >> in country
> > >> >> in the short term.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Also, he was miffed with our support
> for Israel,
> > >> totally
> > >> >> ignoring the fact that along with
> the aid we send
> > >> to that
> > >> >> country, we also spend billions in
> aid to Syria,
> > >> Jordan,
> > >> >> Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and
> Saudi Arabia.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> As you can see, I am rather at a
> loss. Please feel
> > >> free to
> > >> >> jump in and enlighten me as to why
> we were so
> > >> richly
> > >> >> deserving of radical muslim hatred
> and how the
> > >> losses we
> > >> >> sustained on 9/11 could be justified
> as simple pay
> > >> back for
> > >> >> our misdeeds. What is it that you
> imagine we might
> > >> do that
> > >> >> would sooth these peoples imagined
> slights?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> g
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Garrett
> > >> Clevenger"
> > >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009
> 11:11 AM
> > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations work
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > g,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Let's assume for a moment
> that terrorists
> > >> are not
> > >> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you
> and I have
> > >> the same
> > >> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and
> desire to
> > >> retaliate.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Why do you think these people
> would commit
> > >> such
> > >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill
> other people?
> > >> What
> > >> >> specifics would drive these people
> to act so?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > I'm asking to see if we
> could reason as
> > >> to why we
> > >> >> live in a world seemingly filled
> with violence due
> > >> to humans
> > >> >> striking fellow humans, so as to
> possibly
> > >> extricate
> > >> >> ourselves from this deadly spiral...
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > gclev
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >> > List services made available by
> First Step
> > >> Internet,
> > >> >> > serving the communities of the
> Palouse since
> > >> 1994.
> > >> >> >              
> http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >         
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
> >                http://www.fsr.net                     
>  
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
> =======================================================
> 
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