[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[g. crabtree]

Take from my response anything you like. It's definitely not that I have no 
argument with your diatribe, it's just that I see little point in trying to 
have a discussion with anyone who actually believes that the USA is the 
moral equivalent of al-qaeda or the taliban. If that's the world you live in 
I feel sorry for you but I really don't believe there is any common ground 
from which to move this dialog forward. As for your infernal living 
arrangements, again my sympathies but I'm afraid I can accept no 
responsibility for where you choose to reside.

g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work


> I'll take it from your snide response, g, that you have no argument 
> against my diatribe.
>
> You did prove Donovan's point, though, that some poeple just can't be 
> reasoned with, and my point, due to this, that perhaps we are condemned to 
> live in Hell.
>
> Congratulation's on helping keep the ball rolling...
>
> gclev
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 12:25 PM
>> "I imagine most of these acts are consequences of the
>> American Empire willing to commit the same atrocities."
>>
>> I'm thinking not so much a book as a tool catalog.
>>
>> As the Ham-ster would say "nuff said."
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett
>> Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g. crabtree"
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>>
>>
>> > I don't condone the violent acts you mention,
>> either, whether committed by suicide bombers, alleged
>> hijackers, or the powers that be that distort truth for
>> their own agenda. I imagine most of these acts are
>> consequences of the American Empire willing to commit the
>> same atrocities.
>> >
>> > There may be some imagined slights, but there are also
>> some very real slights. History is replete with examples of
>> US policy directly responsible for killing innocents. If
>> you're willing to retaliate for feeling slighted, why
>> wouldn't your supposed enemies, who've probably
>> witnessed more bloodshed than hopefully we'll ever see,
>> want vengeance, too?
>> >
>> > You're probably aware of the US financial and
>> military support of Saddam Hussein during the 80's. The
>> US backed Iraq in their war against Iran, where a million or
>> so people were killed. The US also knew Saddam was gassing
>> the Kurds, where, guess what, innocent women, children and
>> men died of chemical weapons. But apparently, the US
>> condoned Saddam's actions.
>> >
>> > The Iranians suffered under the Shaw, a dictator
>> propped up by the US. The Saudis, too, suffer under the
>> Sauds, who the US is willing to support to insure access to
>> oil, and military bases.
>> >
>> > As for Osama, the CIA trained and paid him and his
>> muhjadeen during the Afghan war against the Soviets. So the
>> US is implicated in the deaths they caused during that war,
>> as well.
>> >
>> > Those are only a few of the reasons some people hate
>> the US and are trying to bring it down, to hold its citizens
>> accountable, to make us pay with similar heartache. It was
>> only a matter of time before all that pent up anger would
>> make its way to the US, unfortunately.
>> >
>> > It seems unfair of you to be upset over the deaths of
>> Americans, but not of other people who died as a result of
>> US policy. Personally, I think all of these deaths are a
>> travesty.
>> >
>> > Nothing exist inside a vacuum. Every bomb has a boom.
>> Every person who is tortured brings us closer to our doom.
>> >
>> > All our values will not save us. All our wealth is
>> valueless when we become like our enemy and sell our souls
>> to oppress.
>> >
>> > We live in a freer society than where the alleged
>> terrorist dwell. We have access to more info, and the
>> ability to dissent. These other folk have seen, and are
>> taught, how US policy is hypocritical and leads to their
>> becoming second class citizens. If I lived there and lost a
>> loved one due to the US, I'd be pretty pissed, too. I
>> can empathize with their frustration at what seems to be
>> policy designed to enrich some in the US at the expense of
>> their well-being. I'm actually surprised their isn't
>> more retaliation, but maybe that's due to there being
>> more saner heads than we know, or maybe due to increased
>> security.
>> >
>> > These people's view of history, whether accurate
>> or not, becomes part of their psyche. I can imagine how that
>> shapes their behavior and view of the US. Since they live in
>> a more repressive regime, it's a lot harder for them to
>> break the cycle of hatred they have towards us. Since they
>> aren't as comfortable, it's probably a lot harder
>> for them to keep their cool. Those that are more tolerant
>> are probably ostracized. The ones who retaliate against us
>> are revered. Thus, natural selection leads to violence
>> against the US, and themselves.
>> >
>> > I imagine there are people over there like you who
>> rally others to act violent. They probably say the same
>> thing you do, and so people are enlisted into what means
>> they have of retaliation. If China were taking over our
>> country with military might instead of financially, perhaps
>> we'd have more freedom fighters willing to kill and die
>> to protect our homeland, and we'd have a better
>> understanding of why some are willing to make the ultimate
>> sacrifice in what they deem to be defense of their country.
>> >
>> > It's only natural to want to protect what you
>> love. It's natural to want to retaliate.
>> > It makes perfect sense to me that violence begets
>> violence. We send our soldiers there, who bomb and kill
>> innocent people, which then leads to pissed off people who
>> want to bomb us back. But that doesn't it make it right,
>> or in our best interest. It just makes it look like
>> we're barbarians.
>> >
>> > The war of terror the US is engaged in only seems to
>> promote further violence, which means the war of terror
>> needs more money and troops to fight that violence. It's
>> absurd to think we can keep killing, torturing and bombing
>> our way out of this mess, especially considering there is
>> historical justification for people to be mad at us for us
>> letting our government commit violence.
>> >
>> > By letting them use our tax dollars, like it or not,
>> we are guilty of killing people, and thus, there really are
>> no innocent people, unless you are protesting and not paying
>> taxes. Since we are freer, we're actually more guilty
>> than those in more repressive regimes who have no means of
>> deposing of their government. We do not have to be pawns in
>> the US empire. We do not have to let them engage our
>> military in foreign excursions that quite obviously are
>> mostly intended to secure oil reserves.
>> >
>> > We've spent hundreds of billions of dollars, lost
>> more Americans than who died during the 911 strikes, and
>> killed many, many tens of thousands of innocent people in
>> our desire for vengeance. For what? More hatred towards us,
>> more loss of lives, and more indebtedness to fund this
>> folly.
>> >
>> > I'm able to condemn all these acts of violence as
>> the same evil they are: willing to kill for
>> self-righteousness.
>> >
>> > Admittedly, at this point, there is no easy solution.
>> Considering we have a hard time treating our own with
>> respect amongst our different viewpoints, perhaps we're
>> condemned to live in this hell. We all are animals
>> essentially controlled by our emotions. Our higher being is
>> smothered by those who want to lash out. We all have these
>> feelings, but we all can be redeemed if we're courageous
>> enough to stand up to the powers that be and say,
>> "Enough!"
>> >
>> > For starters though, we need to reign in the American
>> empire. We need to hold Israel accountable for it's
>> double standards against the Palestinians. We need to stop
>> supporting repressive regimes. We need to have compassionate
>> policy that treats all Earthlings with respect. We need to
>> take the higher ground and say, "Sorry."
>> Reconciliation may sound cheesy, but it goes a long way in
>> leading to forgiveness for our trespasses.
>> >
>> > The other alternative is to keep digging ourselves in
>> this hole of hatred, which will lead to further acts that
>> we'll feel we'll need to retaliate against, ad
>> nauseam.
>> >
>> > Corrosive cynicism warmongers display certainly
>> isn't the answer.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sorry for the book. This definitely became longer than
>> intended...
>> >
>> > Peace,
>> >
>> > gclev
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, g. crabtree
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
>> work
>> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 3:21 PM
>> >> "Let's assume for a moment that
>> terrorists are not
>> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you and I have
>> the same
>> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and desire to
>> retaliate."
>> >>
>> >> Retaliate for what? Sorry, but I can't even
>> begin to
>> >> imagine flying jumbo jets into buildings full of
>> innocents
>> >> or strapping on a bomb and going out and
>> deliberately
>> >> killing women and children most of whom are my own
>> >> countrymen.
>> >>
>> >> "Why do you think these people would commit
>> such
>> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill other people?
>> What
>> >> specifics would drive these people to act
>> so?"
>> >>
>> >> According to Osama Bin-Laden, the justification to
>> murder
>> >> nearly 3000 innocent men, women, and children was
>> that after
>> >> the first gulf war we were not quick enough in
>> removing all
>> >> of our troops from Saudi Arabia to suit his
>> tastes. Never
>> >> mind that the Saudi government had made no request
>> for us to
>> >> speed up the rate at which our forces were to pull
>> out. To
>> >> the contrary, they were rather pleased to have us
>> in country
>> >> in the short term.
>> >>
>> >> Also, he was miffed with our support for Israel,
>> totally
>> >> ignoring the fact that along with the aid we send
>> to that
>> >> country, we also spend billions in aid to Syria,
>> Jordan,
>> >> Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.
>> >>
>> >> As you can see, I am rather at a loss. Please feel
>> free to
>> >> jump in and enlighten me as to why we were so
>> richly
>> >> deserving of radical muslim hatred and how the
>> losses we
>> >> sustained on 9/11 could be justified as simple pay
>> back for
>> >> our misdeeds. What is it that you imagine we might
>> do that
>> >> would sooth these peoples imagined slights?
>> >>
>> >> g
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett
>> Clevenger"
>> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:11 AM
>> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > g,
>> >> >
>> >> > Let's assume for a moment that terrorists
>> are not
>> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you and I have
>> the same
>> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and desire to
>> retaliate.
>> >> >
>> >> > Why do you think these people would commit
>> such
>> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill other people?
>> What
>> >> specifics would drive these people to act so?
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm asking to see if we could reason as
>> to why we
>> >> live in a world seemingly filled with violence due
>> to humans
>> >> striking fellow humans, so as to possibly
>> extricate
>> >> ourselves from this deadly spiral...
>> >> >
>> >> > gclev
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
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>> >> >
>> >>
>> =======================================================
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>> >
>