[Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work

[Bruce and Jean Livingston]

Alternatives to execution are "surrender, capitulation and acquiescence"?  Ludicrous!

Imprisonment is an easy alternative that punishes, deters and protects society.

Bruce Livingston
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: the lockshop 
  To: Ralph Nielsen ; g. crabtree 
  Cc: vision 2020 
  Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 3:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work


  Ah, Every day is Ashura, every land is Karbala, eh?

  I'm glad we have managed to find common ground. It is silly to be concerned about creating martyrs as muslim extremists need no provocation or justification for their bloody sensless acts and while killing them doesn't do as much to reduce their ranks as quickly as I would prefer, it does put an end to the individual bad attitude and is far preferable to leaving them loose to kill again.

  As has been mentioned on a parallel thread, killing cockroaches hasn't put an end to that problem either but no one is suggesting that we quit. 

  Instead of taking exception to my solution to the problem and insisting that I "think of something better," why don't you enlighten me with your solution. Surrender, capitulation, and acquiescence perhaps?

  g
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ralph Nielsen 
    To: g. crabtree 
    Cc: vision 2020 
    Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:17 PM
    Subject: [Spam 6.72] Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work


    Sorry, Gary, creating martyrs doesn't work. Many years ago the Christian church declared, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church." 


    Some years later, in  680 C.E., Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of the Prophet, and a small group of family members and followers were defeated and beheaded by a much larger army. Ever since then their martyrdom has been commemorated by millions of Muslims. Before he was slain, the martyr Husayn declared, "The believer should desire to meet his Lord while he is right. Thus I do not see death but as happiness, and living with tyrants but as sorrow." 


    Gary, you've got to think of something better than just killing people.


    Ralph




     g. crabtree wrote:


      I don't know about Roger but I'm A-OK with dead terrorists. It certainly is a deterrent for the individual terrorist in question and as to their becoming one more martyr, who cares? It's not as though the lack would result in any reduction in anti American/western violence. After all, Who was Bin Laden avenging? What about Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, Waleed M Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Satam Al Suqami, Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, Hani Hanjour, Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi? There is no question but what were we to cease bringing terrorists down to room temperature the violence would still go on and on and on.


      g




        Roger,


        Maybe you don't like torturing people. But why do you deliberately
        want to kill people? They don't do things like that in civilized
        countries. It doesn't work as a deterrent and, as I have already
        pointed out, it only makes martyrs out of them. I repeat: Whose side
        are you on?


        Ralph




          Ralph
          That ia a ludicrous statement. If you have read my posts it should
          be clear that I do not like torture. Whether he thinks he would be
          a martyr or not is irrelevant. To my mind he would not be a martyr,
          just a fanatic who got what was coming to him.
          Roger






            Nick
            [snip]


            Khalid Scheiikh Mohammed is a fanatic and it is doubtful you could
            appeal to his good side. He wants to executed so he can be a martyr.
            I would grant his wish. It is to be expected that you will get a lot
            of misinformation and this should be taked into account.


            Roger


            Roger, I get the impression that you really enjoy torturing and
            killing people. Why should we make a martyr out of anyone, least of
            all of a fanatic? Whose side are you on?


            Ralph






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