[Vision2020] BE OUTSIDE!

Tue Feb 3 22:17:50 PST 2009

Darrell,

I want to reiterate, that I do like the Boy Scouts, it is a great organization, but I disagree with it on this issue, vehemently. 

We are not going to agree on the tax issue, obviously. I don't think any organization that discriminates on the basis of religion, race, disability, sexual orientation, and in most cases gender (some exceptions here), and age (some exceptions here), should get public funding of any kind, or any reduction of taxes. 

The fact that BSA doesn't include sexuality in the book for the kids and teens is irrelevant since the policy of the organization is to discriminate against a particular group of people. 

"Now this is an interesting-and very debatable-point.  Should the
government only support organizations that fit into specific
philosophies?  Should govt provide a defacto endorsement via funding
of some ideologies over others?  If so, whose?  Who chooses?  By what
criteria?"

Yes, the government should set certain standards for what organizations it gives to.
The Red Cross, yes, the KKK, no, the Aryan Nations, no. If the Boy Scouts inherently believes
that being gay is contrary to its mission, fine, but it still should not be allowed to ban gays
from its organization if it takes money from gays and lesbians.  

If the Boy Scouts of America discriminated against Blacks, or LDS, or Catholics, instead of
gays, would you be making the same claims and justifications for their policies?

"Most Chartering Organizations are churches.  The top three
are the Methodist, Catholic and LDS churches.  In my opinion, the BSA
took its stance because it sought to best represent its customers
wishes.  You want the BSA to change its policies?  Great-get the
churches to change their beliefs."

So if they discriminate against Muslims or Atheists, we need to convince the Christian Churches
to change their policy too? Your logic doesn't compute with me. 
The BSA is about outdoors and character building, not religion or sexuality so it should
not be adopting the policies of Churches.

I would imagine the reason the Girl Scouts doesn't discriminate as much as BSA has more to do with
the fact that BSA is run by men who are less secure in their sexuality than women who run the GSA. I would image
the reason that their are less troops in the GSA is because girls are less likely to join organizations that are 
outdoor and sports related, just as boys are less likely to join certain things like pottery and gymnastics. 

Best Regards,

Donovan 

--- On Tue, 2/3/09, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] BE OUTSIDE!
To: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
Cc: "vision 2020" <Vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 7:41 PM

Donovan:

I have several poinbts below.
>
> Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>
> Mon Feb 2 23:20:00 PST 2009
> Roger,
> Boy scouts does take public money.
As you know, I disagree with you on this point.  As a 501c3 nonprofit,
they do not automatically receive any tax dollars.  Yes, as you've
pointed out, that status does mean they aren't paying as much as a for
profit business.  That is for a reason-because they meet the IRS
definition of a not for profit business.

 In doing so, they SHOULD NOT be allowed
> to discriminate against teenagers and staff because of their sexual
> orientation.

Now this is an interesting-and very debatable-point.  Should the
government only support organizations that fit into specific
philosophies?  Should govt provide a defacto endorsement via funding
of some ideologies over others?  If so, whose?  Who chooses?  By what
criteria?

Or, should it set-up broad criteria, and if an organization meets
them, it is eligible for potential grant funding or non-profit type
status.  Regardless of its ideological stances in other areas.  You
can probably tell what I believe...

> If you disagree, you disagree. But I think it is wrong.
> I also think any organization that discriminates against children, teens,
> and staff on the basis of sexual orientation, disability, and race is
wrong.

The BSA does not discriminate against children, nor does it
discriminate on the basis of disability or race.

> Children cannot escape the discrimination because they have to attend
public
> schools with their peers that are also  in this social organization that
> teaches being like them is wrong.

Actually, none of the BSA books teach anything regarding sexuality.
Now, an argument can easily be made that they are teaching via the
stance the organization takes.  But, the books and program as it is
written and utilized by the kids don't address those issues.

>What does this do to the self esteem of a
> teenager in a small town when all the boys his age are BS but he cannot
join
> because he is gay? Teenagers have a difficult enough time fitting in with
> the group without adults creating additional meaningless divisions.
> Comparing religion is not the same, IMHO because religion relates to
> following a higher power of the State, the Boy Scouts is not.

This last is actually a VERY interesting point.  You are correct that
the BSA is not a religion.  Nor does it endorse any specific religion
(I've known Scouts that were Catholic, Protestant, LDS, Jewish,
Unitarian, agnostic and-I think-Buddhist).  Most major religions in
the USA have endorsed the BSA over the years.  Have you ever wondered
why the BSA took their stance on homosexuality?  I think it is a
direct result of how their organization is set-up.  Most people don't
realize this, but THE BSA DOES NOT OWN ANY TROOPS.  Yes, you read that
correctly.  Rather, they serve as a licensing agency.  Troops are
owned by the BSA's customers, called Chartering Organizations.  This
could be any local civic group (though not a governmental agency-the
BSA has no troops with governmental agencies).  The Chartering
Organization owns the Troop, along with all of its assets, and agrees
to abide by the policies of the BSA (It also gets to vote on said
policies).  Most Chartering Organizations are churches.  The top three
are the Methodist, Catholic and LDS churches.  In my opinion, the BSA
took its stance because it sought to best represent its customers
wishes.  You want the BSA to change its policies?  Great-get the
churches to change their beliefs.

Others have pointed out that the Girl Scouts do not emphasize religion
at all.  Again, I believe that goes back to how the two different
organizations are set-up.  The GSA does not have this "Charter Org"
concept.  Which is the better way?  In my opinion, the BSA way is
vastly superior.  It results in better volunteer support, longer
lasting troops, and more youth in the program.  My evidence for this
claim comes from my 8 years of professional experience in the BSA.
Locally we have about 65 different BSA groups in Latah and Whitman
counties (almost one in every town), and are serving over 40% of boys
in elementary and Jr High.  About 1200 youth are involved.  The GSA
has a few troops in Moscow, Pullman, and Colfax.  I don't know the
number of youth in the program, but it is around 400.  They serve
about 5% of local girls.  I know of BSA Troops that are over 80 years
old.  I've never seen a GSA troop over 10 years old.  The national
picture is similar.

Sincerely,
Darrell

> Best Regards,
> Donovan
>
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