[Vision2020] Habeas Corpus at Bagram

[bear at moscow.com]

Roger,

You can't see a difference between a civil disobedience  situation IN OUR
OWN COUNTRY, and an invasion and occupation of someone else's country? And
who said they want to murder all of us? What they want is US the hell out
of THEIR country!

ALL torture is immoral, and when it is done by law enforcement agencies,
those individules are punished.  There is NO legitimate law enforcement
agency that I know of in the US that has a POLICY of torture!

We have Constitutional law that deals with our conduct in war time, that
if not complied with, should be punished. Those that help evade and
corrupt the Constitution to allow torture should be punished. And as far
as them not being "normal enemy combatants", what makes you say that? The
only one who came up with the contrived concept of "illegal enemy
combatants" was Geo Bush and gang. And the problem with that definition is
that IF we have civilians working abroad, in a combat area, that get
captured, based on the Bush definition, THEY are "illegal enemy
combatants"  and can be treated the same way!


Wayne



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lets turn this around a bit.
> Do you and Sunil believe we are a nation of laws? The Civil Rights
> Movement was built on civil disobedience. Do you think that was wrong and
> that those discrimination laws should have been obeyed? My nephew was
> killed by two guys at Lowell hot Springs, near Banks. This was
> premeditated murder. His body was left to scald in the hot water. They
> were sentenced to 10 years, but served less than five. Do you think that
> Miller should serve a life sentence unless it is proven that he killed
> someone? I do not think very much of throwing people up against walls.
> there should be better ways than what might cause physical damage. Sleep
> deprivation is sometimes used by the police. Do you want to send all
> police officers that have used this technique to jail for life?. I think
> that this technique might be applicable in some cases, but should be used
> with caution, since prolonged  sleep deprivation can sometimes bring on
> epileptic seizures. I have not heard you or Sunil voice any concern !
>  for those
> that might be killed. Instead you seem to be only concerned with the
> welfare of those who want to murder us. I find this disturbing. You should
> remember that this is not an ordinary war and that these are not the
> normal enemy combatants.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Andreas Schou ophite at gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:04:00 -0700
> To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Habeas Corpus at Bagram
>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:55 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Andreas
>> > 1. One might start by changing the definition of torture or by making
>> > several categories of torture.
>>
>>
>> Actually, until we provided retroactive immunity to US torturers through
>> revisions to the War Crimes Act, our treatment of prisoners were covered
>> under the War Crimes Act. We have not provided such retroactive immunity
>> under either our international obligations or under otherwise existing
>> US
>> law.
>>
>>
>> > 2. The Constitution not the UN should be our highest authority.
>>
>>
>> Treaties, when ratified, have the weight of law. Actually, slightly
>> higher
>> than other laws. This is because for all intents and purposes, a
>> ratified
>> treaty *is* a law. The UN Convention on Torture was signed by Ronald
>> Reagan
>> in 1988 and became the law of the United States. That aside, US law
>> independently prohibits torture. 18 USC 2340 criminalizes torture
>> committed
>> "under color of law." Its definition is relatively broad:
>> “[T]orture” means
>> an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically
>> intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other
>> than
>> pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person
>> within
>> his custody or physical control;"
>>
>> Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, and sleep deprivation fall under 18
>> USC
>> 2340(2)(D), which criminalizes "[p]rocedures calculated to disrupt
>> profoundly the senses or the personality."  A profound disruption in the
>> senses and personality -- in particular, to break the will of our
>> victims --
>> was the particular intention of our interrogators and those that
>> directed
>> them. Further, waterboarding was also found to be torture under US law
>> in
>> the only relevant case on the subject, U.S. v. Lee (744 F.2d 1124) in
>> which
>> three Texas deputies waterboarded a murder suspect in order to obtain a
>> confession. You're most likely to find the affirmation (on other
>> grounds) by
>> the Fifth Circuit if you search for it; the District Court opinion is
>> actually far more relevant.
>>
>> Incidentally, on the subject of the lawyering that went into the
>> relevant
>> opinions neither US v. Lee nor the Japanese waterboarding cases were
>> discussed in any detail in the so-called "torture memos."
>>
>> 3. I think one should listen to all side and try to get a balanced
>> picture(
>> > Warren type Commission)
>>
>>
>> You're saying that the FBI investigation, the Taguba Report, the
>> internal
>> memoranda of the OLC, the testimony of the interrogators, and the
>> admissions
>> of the Bush Administration that the President himself authorized
>> waterboarding were insufficient? That we need yet more investigation?
>> And
>> that we should take seriously the protestations of people accused of
>> crimes
>> similar in severity to murder?
>>
>> Whether or not we actually legalize torture, torture was a crime at the
>> time
>> it was committed. OLC opinions provided in bad faith -- as the OLC
>> opinons
>> legalizing torture must have been -- do not bar prosecution. You say
>> we're a
>> nation of laws. But what effect do those laws have when the President,
>> instead of repealing those laws and withdrawing from the obligations,
>> decides to evade and blithely violate them?
>>
>> -- ACS
>>
>>
>
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