[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
bear at moscow.com
bear at moscow.com
Sat Apr 25 07:56:50 PDT 2009
Tom,
A good thing to remember, is that Hitler also NEVER broke a German Law during his reign
either, he had the laws changed, just like W. did ! Everything he did was LAWFUL under
German
laws!
> --===============1365807271==
>
> Haven't you heard, Paul?
>
> Ever since January 20th the 800th MP Brigade, the FBI, and the US
> Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel have all gone over to the
> dark side. They are all now liberal-socialist left-wingnuts. They do
> this every once in a while.
>
> How else would J. Edgar Hoover have been able to accessorize his evening
> gown wardrobe. Liberals are so fashion oriented.
>
> Yo, g! How about Dubya hemself?
>
> First, Bush is all over Matt Lauer -- check out the pointing and the
> aggressiveness. Then, when it's clear that Lauer's not buying it, he
> starts saying that he won't talk about what he's already been talking
> about.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp4vLBvU1bA
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> > I have to admit I'm curious whether or not you'll find Andreas' sources
> > credible: the 800th MP brigade, the FBI, and the US Department of
> > Justice Office of Legal Counsel, among others.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > g. crabtree wrote:
> > > Didn't you read the sentence? I chose to use the word "think" instead
> > > of "know" because, unlike Mr. Schou, I realize that there's a
> > > difference between the two. I base my opinion on reports from
> > > accountable members of the former administration who have actual names
> > > and faces, not anonymous sources, wack job web sites, Al Jazeera, or
> > > the hysterical, foam flecked rants of Keith Olbermann.
> > >
> > > g
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > *Cc:* vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 6:13 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> > > shall you
> > >
> > > Gary,
> > >
> > > You say, "What I have said and what I do think is that harsh
> > > interrogation methods can sometimes be necessary and can produce
> > > useful information. This does not give you license to infer
> > > anything else."
> > >
> > > How do you know this? Have you participated or observed these
> > > interrogations? Or are you relying on someone else's account?
> > > What makes that account so credible?
> > >
> > > For argument's sake if your first statement is correct, what's
> > > your point? Are you saying such interrogations should be used?
> > > If they cross the line into torture, should they still be used?
> > > How often? By whom?
> > >
> > > Sunil
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> > > To: ophite at gmail.com; smith at turbonet.com
> > > Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:38 -0700
> > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> > > shall you
> > >
> > > With your very first sentence you once again mischaracterize what
> > > it was I said. I did not concede that the things you mention took
> > > place. Just because you've read something in the huffington post
> > > and/or the new york times and regurgitate it here doesn't make it
> > > a verified fact. You don't know for certain, you were not there,
> > > you are electing to take someone at there word. Show me evidence
> > > and I'll concede that those events occurred and not before.
> > >
> > > What I did say was that I did not at any time defend or encourage
> > > those sorts of measures. Period. Your overused technique for
> > > taking what someone actually says and determining what they
> > > /really /mean and what they r/eally/ think is tedious and annoying.
> > >
> > > What I have said and what I do think is that harsh interrogation
> > > methods can sometimes be necessary and can produce useful
> > > information. This does not give you license to infer anything else.
> > >
> > > But Lord knows you almost certainly will.
> > >
> > > g
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Andreas Schou <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
> > > *To:* a <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>
> > > *Cc:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com> ;
> > > jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com> ;
> > > vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 3:17 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow,
> > > so shall you
> > >
> > > Gary --
> > >
> > > So, what you're saying is that you concede that abuses took
> > > place; you concede that interrogation techniques like
> > > uninsulated 30 and 100 degree temperatures; you concede that
> > > the same guy responsible for Abu Ghraib was responsible for
> > > GTMO; you concede that any technique that did not produce pain
> > > "equivalent to death or organ failure" was approved for use on
> > > our GTMO detainees. And you claim that you don't support any
> > > of these things: that these things are torture.
> > >
> > > And then, conceding that we did these things, you nonetheless
> > > bang the table and insist that our approach to interrogation
> > > didn't constitute torture. The most charitable interpretation
> > > of this is that you are merely incapable of drawing
> > > conclusion. However, having corresponded with you over the
> > > years, I've found that you have a genius for drawing incorrect
> > > and immoral conclusions.
> > >
> > > What are the facts as you believe them to be? Did we
> > > waterboard? Did we leave detainees shackled to the ceiling,
> > > stewing in their own shit? How about week-long periods of
> > > sleep deprivation over years of detention? Did we do that? Do
> > > you think this is consistent with our values? Do you think we
> > > should be ordering US servicemen to do this sort of thing? Is
> > > that consistent with a duty to protect the honor of our
> > > servicemen and intelligenc officers?
> > > -- ACS
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM, a <smith at turbonet.com
> > > <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > You're absolutely right. As a work of pulp fiction it's
> > > right up there with the Left Behind series and any of the
> > > vapid crap produced by Dan Brown.
> > >
> > > By the numbers:
> > >
> > > 1. I have at no time tried to justify the abuses in the
> > > FBI report to such as being chained with no access to
> > > food, water, or toilet facilities.
> > >
> > > 2. Exposing anyone to low temperatures to the point of
> > > hypothermia (Although one wonders how many US soldiers
> > > were treated for the same thing that night, no "torture"
> > > involved)
> > >
> > > 3. Sexual abuse of any description.
> > >
> > > Pretending that these are my expressed views and then
> > > vigorously taking me to task for them is dishonest in the
> > > extreme and is exactly the sort of thing I have come to
> > > expect from Mr. Schou. Playing fast and loose with the
> > > truth has allways been a hallmark of his debate style and
> > > for him to hold himself up as a paragon of moral
> > > righteousness is laughable. I believe that he would do
> > > well to climb down off his rustled moral high horse and
> > > respond to what I actually write not what he concocts in
> > > his fevered imagination.
> > >
> > > g
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > > *To:* ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com> ;
> > > jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 11:57 AM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As
> > > ye sow, so shall you
> > >
> > > This is probably the finest post I've ever read on
> > > Vision 2020.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Andreas.
> > >
> > > Keely
> > > http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> > > Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:31:27 -0700
> > > From: ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
> > > To: jampot at roadrunner.com
> <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As
> > > ye sow, so shall you
> > >
> > > Gary --
> > >
> > > From the FBI report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay under
> > > Geoffrey Miller, the general later brought in to
> > > "Gitmoize" Abu Ghraib:
> > >
> > > "on several occasions, witness ("W") saw detainees
> > > ("ds") in interrogation rooms chained hand and foot in
> > > fetal position to floor w/no chair/ food/water; most
> > > urinated or defecated on selves, and were left there
> > > 18, 24 hrs or more. Once, the air conditioning was so
> > > low that the barefoot d was shaking with cold. Another
> > > time, it was off so the unventilated room was over 100
> > > degrees, d was almost unconscious on floor with a pile
> > > of hair next to him (he had apparently been pulling it
> > > out throughout the night). Another time, it was
> > > sweltering hot and loud rap music played - d's hand
> > > and foot was chained and he was in a fetal position on
> > > the floor. Upon inquiry, W was told that interrogators
> > > [military contractors] ordered this treatment. Took
> > > place in Delta Camp"
> > >
> > > The report goes on to substantiate that more than one
> > > detainee (d) was brought into the infirmary with
> > > hypothermia after an interrogation session. Detainees
> > > pissing and shitting all over themselves. Being
> > > sexually assaulted by female guards. Forced to stay
> > > awake for longer than the human body can stand. Being
> > > partially drowned. Being stuck in a coffin with what
> > > you're told are scorpions.
> > >
> > > These are not conditions you will find any Hilton
> > > other than the Hanoi. They are not on the continuum of
> > > acceptable behaviors any more than a knife is on the
> > > continuum of 'comfortable objects' because, like a
> > > knife, it's also an object. These are techniques we
> > > reverse-engineered from North Korean torture
> > > techniques in order to create SERE, and then
> > > reverse-reverse engineered in order to create GTMO and
> > > the "black sites." This is despite the fact that we --
> > > as in, our country -- prosecuted Japanese soldiers for
> > > waterboarding, and even Israel, no friend of
> > > terrorists, has abandoned it because it produces bad
> > > intelligence. Indeed, if I were just a little more
> > > cynical than I am, I'd say that that's quite the
> > > point: we waterboarded KSM for information on the
> > > nonexistent Iraq-al-Qaida connection, and Abu Zubaydah
> > > for information on confabulated terrorist plots he had
> > > no reason to know about.
> > >
> > > You're wrong about the facts. You're wrong about the
> > > law. I could go on about that, but I'd just be arguing
> > > with the tinny little noises escaping from the echo
> > > chamber you pretend will replace journalism. I'm
> > > waiting with bated breath to find out why you think
> > > the FBI is infiltrated by ACORN or how George Soros is
> > > dictating the legal conclusions of Republican
> > > appointees at Foggy Bottom. That's just your
> > > intentional ignorance, plus arrogance, tribalism, and
> > > smug self-satisfaction at your clever turns of phrase.
> > > I can tolerate that.
> > >
> > > What gets to me -- why I'm provoked to respond -- is
> > > that you're willing, even eager, to sell out our
> > > country's honor in order to soothe your rank
> > > cowardice. Or maybe it makes you feel like a real man
> > > to hear that some punk Afghan teenager with an AK-47
> > > was awake for a week, stewing in his own shit,
> > > shackled to the floor. Whatever the impulse is --
> > > tribalism? sadism? fear? -- it's not anything I
> > > recognize as American. What third-world tinpot
> > > dictatorship did you grow up in that you think this is
> > > acceptable?
> > >
> > > We consent to abide by certain principles. It's that
> > > common consent that keeps our country from being a
> > > collection of miscellaneous foreigners on someone
> > > else's land. I have disagreements with conservatives
> > > about the metes and bounds of those principles, sure.
> > > But here you are, disputing whether America should
> > > have principles at all.
> > >
> > > Americans, by which I mean FDR and Eisenhower, Reagan
> > > and JFK, held off the Soviets and Nazi Germany,
> > > nations that both posed a dire existential threat to
> > > our country, while banning torture, expanding the
> > > protections of the Geneva Convention, and abandoning
> > > the pretense that it's okay to attack civilian
> > > populations. These are tempting tactics. Some of them
> > > work. Torture produces words rather than silence. The
> > > Geneva Convention bans effective tactics for making
> > > war. Killing civilians forces submission. We stepped
> > > away from these things. We won. Twice. Over the two
> > > most belligerent, technologically advanced, and
> > > staggeringly immoral nations ever to exist, one armed
> > > with enough weapons to destroy the world several times
> > > over.
> > >
> > > But then 9/11 made you wet yourself. A crime of
> > > unimaginable scale happened to people in New York
> > > City; people whom you don't even accord the privilege
> > > of being called Americans. The crime was carried out
> > > by guys carrying weapons you can buy at Home Depot.
> > > Somehow, that uprooted your sense that America stands
> > > for anything. But how deep were those roots, Gary,
> > > that fewer deaths than those caused by the flu could
> > > pull them up?
> > >
> > > Our soldiers make a commitment. They tell us they'll
> > > uphold the Constitution. But there's a reciprocal side
> > > to that commtiment: we tell them that they're the good
> > > guys; that they're not just protecting American lives,
> > > but American values. That they're fighting for
> > > liberty, mom, and apple pie. Because 9/11 made you wet
> > > yourself, you're asking those soldiers to sit and play
> > > Minesweeper while some dumb Afghan redneck shits his
> > > pants in Arctic cold, chained to the ceiling of a
> > > lightless cell. If you tell his President to tell our
> > > soldiers to do that, you've reneged on our commitment
> > > to make our soldiers the good guys. Our moral purpose
> > > doesn't come from who we are; it comes from what we do.
> > >
> > > I don't know whether there's going to be a reckoning
> > > for the people that authorized this. But you're the
> > > reason there should be: to put the rudder straight and
> > > make people like you -- who actively argues for
> > > torture -- too ashamed to speak up in public. Anything
> > > you just said should be enough to make any decent
> > > person drop their beer, walk out of the room, and go
> > > find another locksmith. I'm looking forward to the day
> > > when it is.
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> > > Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows
> > > with you. Check it out.
> > >
> <http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> > >
> > >
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>
>
> "So keep fightin' for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> produce. And when you get through kickin' ass and celebratin' the sheer
> joy of a good fight, be sure to tell those who come after how much fun it
> was."
>
> - Molly
> Ivins
>
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